Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

I feel distinctly uneasy that so many women who consider themselves educated and knowledgable do not know that the external genitalia of women is their vulva, the vagina is the internal connection to their uterus.

What I feel uneasy about is the notion that, after having fought long and hard for the right to be treated equally, women are being treated like helpless victims again.

I feel quite uneasy about the idea of there being no 'women only' places.

Well the answer for me is that the presence of men in womens spaces increase the risks for women. I think the answer in terms of changing rooms and toilets is very simple. Male female and mixed sex provision should be available. My only niggling concern about that solution is when women are assaulted in the mixed sex provision their assault may not be treated seriously because 'they were in the mixed sex facility whst did she expect' . In the way that women are blamed for whatever scenario they are in when they are assaulted.

It's more an idealogical point really. It's not necessarily my opinion.

Are you saying men in developed countries are not a risk to women?

Because mixed sex facilities increase the risk of assault to women. Whichever country you are in.

I agree that single sex facilities are vital in developing countries, galaxy but we're not a developing country.

If we are so keen to accept/embrace/ tolerate gender-neutrality/ non-binary-ism / transing men then why can't we also embrace the need to share the same spaces?

It all seems a bit penny and bun to me....

Indeed it was used as way to stop women being involved in public life. If I am not mistaken the first public toilet for women was burned to the ground. Men have never liked women having spaces of their own.
It is considered vital for girls to have access to single sex facilities in developing countries for their safety. I wonder why.

Actually as far as loos go that's historically interesting Galaxy. There were originally public men's loos but no women's, it being thought unlikely and wrong for women to use such things. www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/
And there are places where single sex loos are considered important so women can access education.

Why do we segregate by sex trisher? Where is your inclusivity for the women who will be terrified using facilities with men present.

I tend not to go around asking people for their birth certificate or a Gender Recognition certificate so how would I know? I take people as they appear. I suppose I have been lucky I have in the past been alone in situations where a man could have raped me. Not necessarily in toilets, there are plenty of other places. If men or women or trans women or trans men are violent or abusive they should be dealt with by the law. But just as I am not prepared to label every man a potential rapist I am not prepared to label every trans woman a potential rapist. And just as I don't go around looking to see if everyone in a changing room has a vagina I won't go looking for penises either. Meanwhile I will see in the evening in my city same sex couples, trans people with people they like and straight people amongst them and life will go on. There wil no doubt be hate crimes practised by evil people but I live in hope that we will become more inclusive and more tolerant and people will be happier. That's it.

But nobody cares how people present or dress. No one. It just doesnt mean they have changed sex.

trisher EXACTLY. 'you will see trans people, binary people, people who choose to dress and act as they feel everywhere. and the only thing which should concern us and should unite us is that we stand against all forms of discrimination and violence, whoever promotes or practices it'

Yes and martina navratilova Simon fanshaw those well known bigots. Two people who were at the forefront of lgb rights but yes what do they know.

Oooer J. K Rowling posh girl made a fortune from almost plagiarism. I must pay attention to her. As I said you can talk all you like the actions of young people will drive this and just as the gay liberation movement has made same sex couples the norm on any high street you will see trans people, binary people, people who choose to dress and act as they feel everywhere. and the only thing which should concern us and should unite us is that we stand against all forms of discrimination and violence, whoever promotes or practices it.

Yes twitter mumsnet reddit the today programme. Jk rowling, Ricky Gervais, Martina Navratilova, Sharron davies all debating this issue.
All talking about it. Not just old women, and its fascinating how these oh so tolerant people feel that 'old' peoples views arent important. The issue also lost jo swinson votes in the election just gone. Votes she couldn't afford to loose as it turns out. Not just old people.

Oh I wouldn't think so MacCavity2 the posters on MN are. just as entrenched as those on GN. You don't get many young -ie 16-25 year olds on there. That's where the change is really taking place. The rest of us can debate as much as we like they're the ones really moving things on.

GagaJo may I direct you to MN and other forums for young women. This subject has been talked about for a very long time as posted previously. It is not just old women talking about this all women with any knowledge of history are interested in this and concerned.

Can I just point out that there are trans women already using women's toilets and changing rooms. They don't seem to be a problem and I don't think most people would even notice them. As for refuges they should have a good risk assessment policy anyway and deny anyone a risk access.

In gay venues the boundaries of who goes where are very blurred. No one minds.

Drag queens are not transwomen. Everyone knows they are men. Why would they need to be in the women's toilet?

I'm with Yennifer.

The argument is moot anyway. This is the direction society/culture is going in. Older women arguing about it on a forum for older people are going t have zero influence on this.

Transwomen will never be allowed into womanhood because they are not, and never will be, women. They can identify as such as much as they like but they cannot change their biological sex.

The "man" who gave birth in FarNorth's link is, in fact, not a man at all but a woman. He will always be the child"s mother, not its father, and he cannot be named as such on the child's birth certificate. He is a woman, with woman's organs, identifying as a man.

His partner is non-binary. The sperm was donated.

Quote: <<<Again, how is this genuinely good, authentic trans peoples fault? >>>

What is a ‘genuinely good, authentic trans person’? Please define that.

Quote: <<<Trans women are being oppressed, discriminated against, attacked and even murdered. >>> Just like born women, then.