Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

Thank you petunia and Galaxy very important subject that is talked a lot about on MN far more than GN. Soon there will be no safe places for women. And I mean “if you got a dick you ain’t a chick”. Couldn’t make it any clearer.

Well because chromosomes cant change. I cant believe I am even having to type this. Apparently we are all supposed to believe in gender, despite nobody being able to explain or describe it. I am happy for people to believe in gender in the way I am happy for people to believe in god. But please dont ask me to believe it too.

what about the fact that the person who lies in the middle of this issue is a man who has been to court for calling a woman a cunt....wears a beard and men's clothes but insists on being referred to as a woman.
this is hardly a typical trans person.

why is there no sympathy for the woman who lost her job?
I have read that there has been deliberate misinformation put out to discredit her.

This is not really a Trans issue it is bullying of a woman by a man.
If you cannot have your own mind we are then living 1984

while I try to find some info on this case do people know this is the case JK Rowling has given her support to?

mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033
copied form mumsnet last week i think

*‘Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill’*

Yes jk Rowling, jenni murray, Martina navratilova, julie bindel, Simon fanshawe, (one of the founders of stonewall) all these people after years of fighting for minority right have suddenly become bigots. Is that likely. Do people actually stop and think.

The person who this is about is Gregory Murray, the trans bearded Scottish politician who was recently forced to step down for calling women he didn't like cunts.

He seems an unpleasant character who enjoys making trouble, dare I say for women.

here is a link for those who want to read the judgement for themselves drive.google.com/file/d/12P9zf82TicPs2cCxlTnm0TrNFDD8Gaz5/view
I hope i have done the link right

Maybe it was right for Maya to lose her job ( i don't think so) but she wasn't exactly going out of her way to bait vulnerable people. Gregory Murray is the individual concerned and is a sh*t stirrer. whatever pronoun wanted.

This post seems to boil down to "I don't like this so let's go look for statistics that back me up" even though statistics are at best, very unreliable.

Actually it is a moral issue. Your opinions and statistics make no difference to people who just want to be themselves and aren't hurting anyone. Opinion is after all, the lowest form of human knowledge and empathy is the highest.

If people want to be called they or them how do you know if there is more than one person?
I accept that some people are born in the wrong bodies and want to change. What I find more difficult are those who want to have the best of both worlds. To be a woman but want to be known as a man but then want to have a child and be a father not a mother. I find that very complicated and can’t help wonder how the child will be able to figure out what is going on.

Galaxy, this question is genuine & I hope not offensive
How do you know you do not feel like a woman? In what respect do you mean this ? One would need to know what a woman ‘feels like’ in order to know that they do not ‘feel it .’

Not offensive at all. Nobody should be frightened of asking questions. If there is such a thing as feeling like a woman all woman would feel the same surely? I feel like me. I cant possibly know if I feel like a woman because I dont know how other women feel.

We cant segregate prisons etc by feelings.

I don’t believe all woman or all men feel the same,
I guess I would be considered feminine looking , but I prefer a lot of what would have been called ‘ men’s jobs , pastimes outlook, fashion choices etc.

I think that the above comments show that we all think very differently about sex and gender. Often the two are intertwined. This is why I would like to see an open debate where sex and gender are seen as two different issues. Sex is (mostly) binary whereas gender is fluid and ever changing. Sadly the two are frequently jumbled together and used to confuse and mislead.
How can we make decisions on Gender Recognition and the safety of women and children when we don't agree on what gender is or even what biological sex is.

Is it defined by not being sexually attracted to men ?

MacCavity2 Mon 30-Dec-19 13:55:11
Thank you petunia and Galaxy very important subject that is talked a lot about on MN far more than GN. Soon there will be no safe places for women. And I mean “if you got a dick you ain’t a chick”. Couldn’t make it any clearer.

Downright dismissal of a LOT of people who in a generation or two will be completely accepted.

Galaxy Mon 30-Dec-19 13:57:48
I am happy for people to believe in gender in the way I am happy for people to believe in god. But please dont ask me to believe it too.

I 100% agree with this. We all believe what we like. But what comes out of our mouths should be kind and respectful of whatever identity someone else has chosen for themselves. I don't have a religious faith, but I have respect for those who do and would go out of my way to be respectful of their beliefs.

It is VERY recent that being gay has stopped being seen as 'a lifestyle choice' and seen as just another form of sexuality. Trans will be the same. You and I might not be here to see it, but it will happen.

Does it even need to be defined?
If folks are happy it really shouldn’t matter
Cruelty, bullying , & domination of another is wrong .That is where the focus should lay.

I disagree gagajo. I think things are already changing. The stories of detransitioners are already being heard. The whistleblowers at the tavistock are raising serious concerns about the treatment of children. Australia has just demanded an urgent review of its treatment relating to children. I agree it wont happen in our lifetime, whichever way it goes. And the truth is neither of us knows which way it will go. I think we will look back at this treatment of children with horror. Its possible in my.old age I have become a bigot it seems unlikely to me considering the rest of my life but anything is possible. If I am wrong I am a bigot and I will live with that, however the alternative that I might have contributed to a belief that autistic children should be sterilised and put on a medical pathway for life ( with serious associated health risks) I just cant live with that.

Just to confuse things even more there are people who keep changing gender. One day they wake up and feel like a woman, the next day they feel like a man. Surely this is in their head and we need to find out what is going on in there.

I don't mean things aren't changing for trans people. I mean things are not changing in relation to peoples attitudes towards them.

I'm sickened by some of the bigotry towards people that just happen to be slightly different to us. I have friends of different ethnicities, ability levels, nationalities, religions, political perspectives, ages, sexualities and genders (I may have missed some categories out - that is the problem with labels). The people I dislike the most are bigots.

And yes, Chestnut, some people DO change. Why is that a problem? For the first 30 years of my life I regarded myself as heterosexual. Then I 'discovered' I was a lesbian. Now my long-term partner is a man. I've stopped labelling myself now. So what? How would that affect anyone other than me?

How does someone feeling they're a man, then a woman, then back to a man again impact on you personally? If you see a masculine woman in the M&S changing room, you're not to know where on their journey they are. And it's none of your business.

We have given detailed descriptions of how this affects women
You dont engage with any of it. Almost as if you considered womens feelings irrelevant. Almost as if you were a bigot.

People believe what they want to believe, what they don't understand though is that other people have the right not to be associated with people whose moral values don't match their own. So an employer can say that an outlook doesn't match their company ethos... Which is how bigoted views will eventually get quashed in society! Eventually people get alienated and stop listening to you if you think your opinion is more important than their feelings...

Other countries don't have separate toilets, changing rooms, etc. Do they have an elevated rate of crime against women?
I have no problem with people who genuinely identify as a different sex being able to call themselves whatever they like and it seems to me that it is bad form to refuse to refer to them by anything other than they want to be.
I have somewhat of a problem with anything medically done to children regarding their sex simply because I don't think it is usually clearcut. I have a cousin with a biological 8 year old boy living as a girl. I have no problem with that per se but do worry that the decision to do that is not as autonomous as it is portrayed. The psychology of it is very difficult and it occurs to me that if this child changes their mind about their gender, it will be difficult to say this to parents who have embraced the original change so enthusiastically. In their enthusiasm to be supportive, does this become unwarranted pressure?
As a child, I was always known as one of the boys and would get quite stroppy if I was referred to as one of the girls. I climbed trees and was more of a boy than the boys whilst my sister played dollies quite happily with the girls. I'm not sure when I became one of the girls, it just happened! However, I still want tools for my birthday, enjoy doing the traditional men's things (although I do tend to read the instructions) rather than the traditional women's things. I'm hairier than my husband, often mistaken for a man on the telephone and my testosterone levels have been higher than they should be with my oestrogen levels being lower. Like somebody else said, I would have jumped at being a boy when I was younger if had been offered but for all that, I am definitely a woman so I am glad I didn't have the opportunity to mess my life up more than I already did myself!
I do have a slight problem with gender fluidity. It strikes me as wanting the best of both worlds. The whole thing is terribly complicated and I can't see a way of moving forward without some part of society being harmed.

I have just re read the OP.
IMO , it is as wrong to sack anyone regarding their views on this subject, however it should be considered a sackable situation if a person is treated differently than another person only & because of their sexuality . I