Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

Meanwhile half the world is still starving,
Some parts are burning
Poverty is still prevalent
Inequality is everywhere,
But let’s just get up tight and argue about being
Mis- titled & pronouns !
Be who ever you want to be, but get over yourselves , be grateful for what you do have.

Yes I notice you have answered none.of the questions relating to womens safety. Whether its why there is a difference between the rates of assault in mixed sex or single sex facilities or the question above. Knowing that men commit sexual assault at a rate higher than woman is not a strange prejudice. If you are concerned about undemocratic regimes you might take pause to wonder why you are tying yourself in knots not to use the words men in answer to those questions. You cant answer those questions because using the correct descriptor would lead to further discussion. Democracy relies on language to function.

Galaxy I refuse to answer such a stupid irrelevant question and take it as absolute proof that you are in fact running out of arguments. The subject under discussion is not rape but one woman who has chosen to abuse the human rights of other people. Now I happen to think human rights are of vital importance and not respecting them is the beginning of the sort of thinking which has underwritten undemocratic regimes. I believe most women have always fought for human rights but there has always been a small percentage with very strange prejudices against one or another set of people. I have about as much in common with those women as I do with a chipmunk. I will leave you to consider what is more important human rights or insisting there are only 2 sexes?

Do you know one of the reasons transwomen originally wanted to use female facilities. Because it was safer. Were they wrong as well ?

Trisher we have all read the judgement a thousand times over. This is not our first ride on this particular merry go round. We don't agree with it that's the point.
You didn't answer my question. Would the girl in cyprus have been safer with 11 women?

Ah I see women cannot harm other women or if they do so it won't be as traumatic as men doing it- you don't know many violent women do you?
Galaxy I have asked you to read the judgement as you seem not to want to do so I will post more. It is the absolutionist attitude she took when questioned that lost her the action. The tweets were mentionedbut were not the main reason !
^However, I consider that the Claimant's view, in its absolutist nature, is incompatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others. She goes so far as to deny the right of a person with a Gender Recognition Certificate to be the sex to which they have transitioned. I do not accept the Claimant's contention that the Gender Recognition Act produces a mere legal fiction. It provides a right, based on the assessment of the various interrelated convention rights, for a person to transition, in certain circumstances, and thereafter to be treated for all purposes as the being of the sex to which they have transitioned. In Goodwin a fundamental aspect of the reasoning of the ECHR was that a person who has transitioned should not be forced to identify their gender assigned at birth. Such a person should be entitled to live as a person of the sex to which they have transitioned. That was recognised in the Gender Recognition Act which states that the change of sex applies for “all purposes”. Therefore, if a person has transitioned from male to female and has a Gender Recognition Certificate that person is legally a woman. That is not something that the Claimant is entitled to ignore.
85. Many trans people are happy to discuss their trans status. Others are not and/or consider it of vital importance not to be misgendered. The Equal Treatment Bench Book notes the TUC survey that refers to people having their transgender status disclosed against their will. The Claimant does not accept that she should avoid the enormous pain that can be caused by misgendering a persons, even if that person has a Gender Recognition Certificate. In her statement she say of people with Gender Recognition Certificates “In many cases people can identify a person’s sex on sight, or they may have known the person before transition.... There is no general legal compulsion for people not to believe their own eyes or to forget, or pretend to forget, what they already know, or which is already in the public domain.” The Claimant's position is that even if a trans woman has a Gender Recognition Certificate, she cannot honestly describe herself as a woman. That belief is not worthy of respect in a democratic society. It is incompatible with the human rights of others that have been identified and defined by the ECHR and put into effect through the Gender Recognition Act.
86. There is nothing to stop the Claimant campaigning against the proposed revision to the Gender Recognition Act to be based more on self-identification. She is entitled to put forward her opinion that these should be some spaces that are limited to women assigned female at birth where it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. However, that does not mean that her absolutist view that sex is immutable is a protected belief for the purposes of the EqA. The Claimant can legitimately put forward her arguments about the
importance of some safe spaces that are only be available to women identified female at birth, without insisting on calling trans women men.
87. Human Rights law is developing. People are becoming more understanding of trans rights. It is obvious how important being accorded their preferred pronouns and being able to describe their gender is to many trans people. Calling a trans woman a man is likely to be profoundly distressing. It may be unlawful harassment. Even paying due regard to the qualified right to freedom of expression, people cannot expect to be protected if their core belief involves violating others dignity and/or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them.
88. As set out above, I draw a distinction between belief and separate action based on the belief that may constitute harassment. However, if part of the belief necessarily will result in the violation of the dignity of others, that is a component of the belief, rather than something separate, and will be relevant to determining whether the belief is a protected philosophical belief. While the Claimant will as a matter of courtesy use preferred pronouns she will not as part of her belief ever accept that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man a man, however hurtful it is to others. In her response to the complaint made by her co-workers the Claimant sated “I have been told that it is offensive to say "transwomen are men" or that women means "adult human female". However since these statement are true I will continue to say them”.
89. When in an, admittedly very bitter, dispute with Gregor Murray, who alleged that they had been misgendered by the Claimant, rather than seeking to accommodate Gregor Murrays legitimate wishes she stated: “I had simply forgotten that this man demands to be referred to by the plural pronouns “they” and “them”, “Murray also calls it “transphobic” that I recognise a man when I see one. I disagree”, “In reality Murray is a man. It is Murray’s right to believe that Murray is not a man, but Murray cannot compel others to believe this.” and that “I reserve the right to use the pronouns “he” and “him” to refer to male people. While I may choose to use alternative pronouns as a courtesy, no one has the right to compel others to make statements they do not believe.”
90. I conclude from this, and the totality of the evidence, that the Claimant is
absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

Do you think the girl in Cyprus would have been safer with 11 women or 11 males. Have a guess.

Oh my god. Oh my god.
If you are a feminist and no feminist I know would say the above then you will know that 97 % of violent sexual crime is committed by men. You know that and still you say that. No those girls arent at risk from those girls in the way they are from boys.

garnet25 there are girls in schools who would attack (and have) your 12 year old girl, probably pinching her skirt or shoving her out into the corridor in her pants. What do we do about them? Anyone male or female can be violent or unpleasant.

Read the tweets. They are all available. As I have said one of the tweets used in evidence against her was made by a transwomen. A transwomen who is currently at risk of suspension from a committee she sits on because she says transwomen are men.

For the hundredth time she said she would use preferred pronouns. She did not send negative tweets about anyone she worked with. She accidentally misgendered a man she had nothing to do with.

Galaxy would you treat someone with a GRC with respect, use the pronoun they ask you to and not send negative tweets about them? If so there would be no danger of you being sacked. This was not about a belief, but the treatment of other people. Read the judgement.

Good post garnet25 and I mentioned the 12 year old girl who is learning how to cope with periods (about 6 pages back!) She needs a space where only females can enter, not a gender neutral toilet. Imagine trying to deal with that at school with all the boys milling around in the toilets.

Trisher I dont believe a GRC makes you a woman. Should I be fired.

This is just my point of view. Imagine for a moment or think back, a teenage girl enters a ladies toilet, she is having her period. she enters a cubicle to sort herself out, her skirt has got stained so she takes it off and leaves the cubicle to try and clean it up a bit in a washbasin, wash her hands and generally tidy herself up. How will she feel if she sees a chap with a beard in the space? Or how would an old lady who has had an accident feel? I am not against fully transitioned folk who have lived as women prior to being certified sharing our space. Just the thought of men being able to self certify because they just might be trans or those who would use the facility opportunistically. Women are being diminished by this movement. I refuse to be called a cis woman or a non-male person. I am a woman an adult human female.

No feminists can make as much noise as they like Galaxy what they cannot do is impinge on others human rights just as the judge said. I cannot believe it is right for someone to be so entrenched in their personal beliefs that they think others unworthy of consideration. And had she just bent a bit by saying she would recognise Gender Recognition Certificates as at least allowing someone to choose their own pronoun she might have fared better. I don't mind her thinking there are only 2 sexes. I don't mind her thinking feminism can castigate others. I do mind her causing more damage to people who whatever gender she may believe them to be have suffered enough.

Do we sack folks for other beliefs? If we do not then we should not , it should not be down to cherrypicking .
biological sex does usually exist at birth .
Should folks be sacked if they behave in a biased way to someone who they do not accept for who they are ? YES
in my opinion they should be , but only if they are actively ‘behaving ‘in a discriminatory way towards them. Not because they do not Understand the situation.

You like your feminists to keep quiet trisher.
If you include men in womens spaces you exclude some women. That's not inclusive.

pinkquartz you posted the link to the judgement. All the evidence is there. I could cut and paste it all but quite frankly I can't be a**ed If you choose to make her into some sort of a victim that's your right. Personally I like my feminists less judgemental and more inclusive.

Pinkquartz

Sorry I am still new at using this thing. It was for a person right at the start of this forum. A person that was saying that they would call a child their preferred name but not the pronouns they wanted. DGC? I am unfamiliar with this term. How are there grown men hurting women?

Kthegranny

who is this response to please?

I can't see anyone being unloving to a DGC on here.

There are grown men causing trouble for women......is that OK

Why would you not call a child the name and pronouns they wish to be called just to make them happy? If you don't understand it, instead of simply refusing to validate the child maybe you should educate yourself more on the matter and decide what is more important; your grandchild's and other children's love or your own biased opinion

Trisher

what you are calling scientific evidence is rather dubious....certainly not proven.

Trisher

you are not sticking to the truth about what happened with Maya.

people will have a lot worse than "hurt feelsz" if this nonsense doesn't have common sense brought in.

She never said what you say she did.

I don't know why you are so intense about Maya but she didn't hurt anyone.

If a person cannot have an opinion on a tweet we are already in trouble.

Are the transwomen who also believe this uncompromising? It is not demonising people to say humans cant change sex.