Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

Well the answer for me is that the presence of men in womens spaces increase the risks for women. I think the answer in terms of changing rooms and toilets is very simple. Male female and mixed sex provision should be available. My only niggling concern about that solution is when women are assaulted in the mixed sex provision their assault may not be treated seriously because 'they were in the mixed sex facility whst did she expect' . In the way that women are blamed for whatever scenario they are in when they are assaulted.

I feel quite uneasy about the idea of there being no 'women only' places.

What I feel uneasy about is the notion that, after having fought long and hard for the right to be treated equally, women are being treated like helpless victims again.

I feel distinctly uneasy that so many women who consider themselves educated and knowledgable do not know that the external genitalia of women is their vulva, the vagina is the internal connection to their uterus.

Its a shame that this thread has become so focused on loos-vital as they are.
For me the debate around transgender issues is not one that is happening in public. People, generally women, who attempt to discuss their concerns are shut down with cries of bigot and transphobe. But debate we must.

For me, the debate needs to be around a number of things.

Gender is not sex. Sex is a biological reality, gender is whatever an individual wishes it to be.

What is a woman?. As the brouhaha around the biological definition seems to create such anger, what exactly is a woman?

What does transgender mean? Are we talking of someone who has undergone full legal. physcologial, medical and surgical treatment? Or someone who goes to work in a dress on Wednesday -looking at you Phillip Bunce. Should these two examples of a transgender individuals be treated the same as far as women's spaces are concerned. Someone like Phillip Bunce, or Councillor Murray retain all their male characteristics while claiming that they are female. Are they right?Does it matter?

What does the transgender movement mean for lesbians? Lesbians are sexually attracted to their own sex but how does that work when a man who says he's a woman also states that he's a lesbian. I understand that the lesbian community are facing difficulties with accusations of transphobe etc. because they wont sleep with a woman with a penis.

Finally, an urgent and deadly serious issue. Children. Why are we allowing children, who can not consent to undertake social and medical transitioning. We make decisions on vaccinations, diet, schooling etc. for our children yet over gender we panic. Why are we not supporting these children and accepting their differences without recourse to permanent life changing treatments. Puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, breast binders, hysterectomies are not cost neutral. We would take charge when a six year old decides to eat only ice cream and chips, but why are we not being the adult in the room when a child wants to “change sex”. We've heard on this thread about the tom boys who ultimately passed through the stage and became balanced adults. Why are we opting for medical treatment from such an early stage.

Petunia, you have made those such important points.
Things in bodies cannot be put back.

I also agree with your observations, @petunia.

I think particularly pertinent is the point about the debate having been shut down.

Hence the focus on loos and safe spaces. It's almost like a diversionary tactic. I think we're kind of missing the point, which, to me, is less about the trans agenda and more about free speech.

Which brings us back to the point of the OP, and the right of Forstater to state her views in the public domain without fear of reprisal. She has not been afforded that right, and that is the most worrying thing.

Today it's Forstater; tomorrow it cold be any one of us.

All a bit Orwellian.

Excellent points petunia and you are right the focus is often on toilets (and I am guilty of being dragged into that) which to be honest are the least of our worries and the most easily solved. Refuges and prisons, places which house the most vulnerable women. Whilst the most privileged exchange pronouns in workplace training events, those women are ignored.
And of course there are the issues around sport.

How right you are oldglimmer. It is double speak. Problem for us is that the prevailing narrative is constantly shifting. What is acceptable today is hate speech tomorrow.

Who would have thought, ten years ago, that declaring one self as an adult human female would have created such an uproar!

Will people please read the judgement about this woman. This is not a woman who kept quiet. This is a woman who consistently and regularly refused to use a term someone preferred. Now it may be that the person in question was doing what they were doing to make a point or for political reasons. I don't know. I do know that she could have been in contact with someone who had real gender issues who was on the verge of suicide and she would have behaved in exactly the same manner. That can't be acceptable
As far as I know no-one has to have sex with anyone regardless of gender. No means no and no reason has to be given.

This is not a woman who kept quiet.
Dear god. Is that what we need to do now in public life. Keep quiet.

Mayas statement at her tribunal said she would as a matter of courtesy use preferred pronouns. There is an enormous amount of information going around that is incorrect including the story that she misgendered a colleague. She believes that human beings cant change sex as do I.

Galaxy the perceived wisdom on this thread seems to be that she on one occasion on social media made one remark about someone. She didn't she was vocal in her condemnation and in her disparaging remarks. She isn't a good role model. She isn't understanding and quite frankly if she is the sort of person a woman is supposed to be I'd be going in for changing gender. She can beleive what she likes, she can't subject other people to her beliefs. Any more than a radical Muslim can make all women wear the veil.

How did she subject other people to her beliefs. That is what we are both doing now. Should we both loose our jobs. Have you read the tweets the case is about. They are available on her Twitter feed.

This is the scientific evidence which contributed to the judgement. I hope it will encourage others to think further about gender dysphoria.
“a. Individuals with Complete Androgen Insensitivity have 46-XY chromosomes, which are typically associated with males, but do not have the tissue receptors that respond to testosterone or other androgens. The body, therefore, does not develop external genitalia or secondary sex characteristics typically associated with males but does, generally, have testes. At birth, based on the appearance of the external genitalia, individuals with Complete Androgen Insensitivity are generally assigned female.
b. Individuals with Klinefelter Syndrome have 47-XXY chromosomes and internal and external genitalia typically associated with males, however, the testicles in individuals diagnosed with Klinefelter Syndrome lose function over time. This may lead to breast development and infertility in addition to a number of other health issues.
c. Individuals with Turner Syndrome have 45-XO chromosomes, which means they have one less chromosome than everyone else. In utero, these individuals form sex characteristics typically associated with females including all internal structures but the ovaries begin to die soon after birth and the individuals are unable to make oestrogen. Without treatment, individuals with Turner Syndrome do not develop secondary sex characteristics typically associated with women.
d. Individuals with Mosaic Turner Syndrome may have two different sets of chromosomes. They lose a sex chromosome in the early stages of embryonic development. The cells that are descendants of the cell that lost a chromosome will have Turner Syndrome features. The cells that are descendants of the cells that did not lose a sex chromosome will have features of the embryo’s initial chromosomal sex. Sometimes this initial sex was XX and sometimes it is XY. When there are cells with XY chromosomes present, the fetus produces testosterone and there is at least some testicular tissue. There may also be ovarian tissue. The external genitalia can then be a mixture of external genitalia typically associated with both males and females.
e. Individuals with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) are individuals who have XX chromosomes and external genitalia typically associated with women but are born with extra androgens, including testosterone, and from early in gestation, their brains are exposed to high levels of androgen. Despite frequently being assigned female at birth because of external genitalia, many individuals with this condition have a male gender identity.
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Case Number: 2200909/2019
f. Individuals with 5-alpha reductase are chromosomally XY but they have an enzyme deficiency that does not allow them to convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, the active form of testosterone. At birth, based on external genitalia, they are often assigned female, but their gender identity is almost always male as adults. Their external genitalia also changes at puberty because hormonal changes allow them to make more dihydrotestosterone which is needed for the physical changes that occur causing the development of external genitalia typically associated with males. During early development there is enough testosterone to affect the brain, which often results in a male gender identity.”
44. Chromosomes are the structures in which genetic code is held. The DNA
molecules in chromosomes are the genetic code and their structure provides the genes that effect sex. However, it is increasingly understood that there are not simply genes for particular characteristics. Much depends on how genes are controlled. I was provided in the bundle with an article from the New York times by Dr. Fausto-Sterling, a professor of biology and gender studies, who noted that:
“There has been a lot of new scientific research on this topic since the 1950s. But those looking to biology for an easy-to-administer definition of sex and gender can derive little comfort from the most important of these findings. For example, we now know that rather than developing under the direction of a single gene, the foetal embryonic testes or ovaries develop under the direction of opposing gene networks, one of which represses male development while stimulating female differentiation and the other of which does the opposite. What matters, then, is not the presence or absence of a particular gene but the balance of power among gene networks acting together or in a particular sequence. This undermines the possibility of using a simple genetic test to determine “true” sex.”
45. Morphology is not simply a question of what genes a person has, but also of which ones are being switched on, to what extent, in what combinations and how they interact.

I know not all those presenting as trans-gender may be genuine but I really don't think it helps to keep denying there are people with problems and respecting their choices is important.

Galaxy Maya also stated at her trial that she did not recognise anyone who had a Gender Recognition Certificate. Given what has been gone through by these people to acheive that do you not think they deserve consideration, respect and recognition?

Trisher you are posting information about intersex conditions. As has been stated frequently this is nothing to do with people who are transgender.

Read the last paragraph on the latest research.

Sorry but that doesn't say people can change sex.
Do you also understand that people with a gra do not need to have had surgery or hormones to get a gr

She can beleive what she likes, she can't subject other people to her beliefs. Any more than a radical Muslim can make all women wear the veil.

trisher would you deny a radical Muslim person the right to say they think all women should wear the veil? Isn't that what most GN posts are doing, saying what we believe on any given subject?

janipat if that radical Muslim turned up to work every day and either refused to speak to me or addressed me in a manner which was demeaning because I wasn't veiled of course I would expect them to be disciplined.
Have I said no one has the right to say what they believe? No! Just that they have to respect other people and their beliefs. The radical Muslim can say they think I should be veiled they cannot treat me differently because of that belief. There is a difference.

Galaxy Morphology is not simply a question of what genes a person has, but also of which ones are being switched on, to what extent, in what combinations and how they interact.
What do you think that means?

Agnurse is spot on.

Ooh sorry weird half post.
Trisher maya did neither of those things please stop implying she did. She clearly said in her statement to the tribunal she would use preferred pronouns.
You do understand that you can gain a GRC without surgery or hormone treatment, nobody believes people with a GRC have literally changed sex. Including a number of transsexuals, Fionne Orlander, Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton ( currently facing suspension from a committee she sits on for saying transwomen are men) . Are these people allowed to comment on their own situation ? Because they are saying the same as Maya.

I think it sounds like a discussion on intersex conditions but difficult to say. I dont think it shows people can change sex if that's what you mean.