Messy House

I'm a self-confessed slob. The former storage space in the 'cellar' - ie a former coal cellar in a previous existence as a miner's cottage - has been covered to create a space which can still accommodate my freezer and some cleaning products. I have still to dispose of a number of items either to the tip or the charity shop or the shed. Meanwhile, there are baskets, boxes and bags, some outside, others in the kitchen, a trip hazard! I have a bad habit of stuffing papers into various drawers - if clutter isn't visible is it still clutter?
If anyone gave me a Marie Kondo book for Christmas they would be told - not very politely - where to put it.

Sorry to disagree with some sentiments here about untidy people being warmer and nicer than tidy people - that's simply a value judgment, and there's no empirical evidence for that whatsoever, so let's not be fooled about this. Let's also not be fooled by the idea that one can be untidy to the extent that carrier bags remain on the kitchen floor presumably from one 'wine night' to another, and that socks and jewellery remain on the work surfaces, and also be spotlessly clean - that's just not possible. If carrier bags are not moved - and this is a clear sign of hoarding although without seeing this person's house I couldn't say definitely if there is evidence of hoarding, then there's dust at least around them, and eventually fungus.
I'm sure some people are already cringing now at my suggestion but as a psychotherapist I know that this type of overly untidy behaviour is a defence mechanism, just as is the overly tidy behaviour - it's masking anxiety about something that may be too hard to speak of. Personally, I would 'share' a worry about yourself, say something to your friend along the lines of "I really need to get tidying up before Christmas (or whatever) - I've been so busy socialising recently that I've let things slide and I keep forgetting where I've put things because it's all a bit confused" - share this personal vulnerability even though it's not true and you might get your friend to say something about her own attitude towards clutter and the house she lives in - Do not under any circumstances by her a book about decluttering because you are then making a value judgement about her and she may throw it back at you. And do not offer to help her tidy up. Be a friend. Maybe next time you have a 'wine night' and she's relaxed you could say you have a couple of days planned getting on top of things at home and you might get her to feel relaxed in talking about herself - although she may not even perceive her untidiness as a problem, and it may, as others have said, not be of her making, and by the way, aren't downstairs loos the place where one does store the mop, and crates of water/wine if you have no designated space?

One of the Mums from the school gate heard that DS had joined the cubs. She suggested I come back for coffee and she would find her sons no longer used cub cap for me. She was Scandinavian and I assumed she lived in a sparkling IKEA type home but couldn’t have been more wrong! However she started delving through one pile of clutter throwing stuff aside and there was the cub cap that hadn’t been worn for three years.

My stepmother was notorious for emptying an ashtray each time the ash was flicked into it and straightening the cushion behind the smoker as they leaned forward. One of her friends suggested she tried to resist this behaviour when she married my Dad and I think she tried.

My SIL says herself that she was an obsessive cleaner (thought a neighbour was dirty because she went weeks without washing the living room curtains)! However when I was drying up once she told me just to put things away where I could find space and that was what she obviously did. I am probably way down the scale in comparison but do have shelves for crockery, a place for saucepans etc.

Everyone has different experiences and different standards but offering to help tidy would quite possibly end a friendship so I would only offer if she says something that implies she would welcome help.

The problem with KonMari is that all my tat and trash DOES spark joy...

So I keep it very organised!

Nobody on their death bed ever said "I wished I had cleaned and tidied more" , a messy house usually means the person living there has better, more interesting or important things to do than tidying.

Oh, please don't come and visit me on my boat! You should see my bathroom! The shower cubicle houses a twin tub washing machine, dirty laundry basket, a bucket, a tall, plastic container that has our clean towels stored in, a mop and the dog's drinking water bowl - all of which has to be removed and temporarily relocated by the side of our bed when we need to use the shower (dog's drinking bowl goes in the wash basin). Under the wash basin is a box containing my equestrian body protector and a riding hat. Behind the door between bedroom and bathroom are a couple of sheets of ply for jobs that DH has yet to do (have to be stored inside to keep perfectly dry). My kitchen worktops are a bit of a jumble too, I have a DH who puts things down where ever he happens to be, so there are screwdrivers, torches and goodness knows what else nestling up against the bread bin. If we want to take the boat anywhere, we first have to clear off the back deck in order to get at the tiller, but where would we put the sacks of coal, nets of logs and the kit that we use for transferring our diesel from the containers into the fuel tank? Oh, the shame!

I know exactly what you mean Cleopanda, i once had my oldest grandaughter to stay,and at end of day i said "come on lets tidy up now"- she replied " why,who's coming?"- i think her mum,my eldest daughter,must take after me

I like to think my house sits on some imaginary line, halfway between "cluttered" and "pristine" but its state of tidiness is nobody else's business. Those who don't like it needn't come again and anybody who offered to "help me" to tidy up would not be invited again!

Don't go then, crystaltipps

I agree witchypoo,i have no more cupboard space for my clutter and cant buy more cupboards,& apart from kitchen walls,theres no actual space for more cupboards in my house,i too have a cleaner now,who cleans all floors,dusts,etc,but the things ive no room for she does under/ round,puts them back.

Yes chewbacca,i too had a friend similar,her living room was cluttered but clean, but the rest was a 'bit dubious' as she had about 5 cats too,but she was a warm,funny,lovely true friend,who would never leave you stranded if you needed help or a sofa for the night.we had some great nights out together and marvellous times.But she died suddenly about 6 years ago and i still miss her dreadfully i think thats when i started to get a bit 'cluttery' too as i realised lifes too short to be constantly tidying when you can make time to do other things.

Grandma70s "Untidy people tend to be nicer than very tidy people, less judgemental and uptight, more relaxed and warmer " I agree - after all it takes all sorts to make a world!

Kitchen is fine now (nearly)
Just don't look in the utility room.

I have 'clutter' in my kitchen,my daughter stayed 4 days once,when i was on holiday,she tidied everything away& it took me ages to find things again when i needed them

My daughter was very untidy, as a child. Once she got married she completely changed. Her house is ‘minimalist’ and you never see so much as a magazine left on the coffee table.
I don’t have a lot of unnecessary ornaments or other unused things. My dishes are always washed immediately, and the house is kept clean. However, I have a lot of hobbies, so there tends to be music, knitting, craftwork, books etc dotted about, which my DD used to object to. She now accepts that it’s my house, my clutter!

Lovely post, Chewbacca

- hovel definition: 1. a small home that is dirty and in bad condition.
But the new definition is now - any home which needs tidying???
Apart from the serious mental health condition of “hoarding”, when has being messy or untidy been such a judgmental issue? I’m glad I don’t have such critical friends. Having a “spotless” home or a completely tidy home does not imply superiority or goodness. Having thought about it this morning, none of my kind, generous, thoughtful friends have spotless homes. I think they’re too busy doing kind, generous, thoughtful things to worry about cleaning and tidying!

Friend ??!! If it were my friend, I wouldn't notice!

My Dd is just like this.

She is extremely untidy, clutter everywhere.

The only difference is that her house is not very clean.
Every time I go round there I feel uncomfortable and can’t wait to leave. She doesn’t seem to notice the dirt.

Is she happy with the clutter? If so I don't think you should say anything, it's her home and its up to her how she lives if she wants to be tidy but finds it hard then offer to help. But don't offer until you know how she really feels. When my children were young my home was always untidy. I hated it when my mother in law offered 'advice she was very minimalist and ' it always seemed like she was critiisisng me . When in fact we were just comfortable in difetent types of homes.

It's not your house!

I am logging off now and starting to tidy the kitchen. It's just a bit of clutter on the breakfast bar, the rest is clean and tidy.
Oh, a couple of boxes, papers on a chair as well

Beautiful post, Chewbacca .

Same goes for your friend. She’s probably a very nice person but she clearly has underlying problems that enable her to live in a hovel. It’s just not healthy and it’s not nice to be around. There’s no way surfaces are spotlessly clean under all that clutter. Maybe bring the chat around to why she feels stuck in life and can’t let go of old baggage in order to move on

Where on earth do you lilythepink get that OP’s friend lives “in a hovel” ?

Methinks you might just be overthinkng this ? Might be a short lived friendship if OP follows your advice

I come from a long line of 'clutterbugs' - on both sides of the family. Your friend sounds great and obviously a very interesting person. When we were young, one particular cousin used to love visiting our home with his parents as he found it a treasure-trove of interesting things. He especially liked looking through the drawers of our large sideboard! His mother (not a blood-relative to us) was an obsessive cleaner and tidy-upper. You only had to put a paper or magazine down for a few seconds before it was whisked away to the bin. Sadly she died of throat cancer, and I'm convinced it was caused by her incessant dusting and polishing and daily use of all types of cleaning products. She wasn't a smoker or drinker.

My friend's house was an absolute pit! The kitchen was somewhere it was best not to go in and just accept the generously offered tea and biscuits that came out of it very frequently. The sink was always full of dirty dishes that were half submerged in murky cold water. The living room was jaw droppingly messy; not a clear chair orsofa to sit on without moving stuff first; the floor covered with newspapers, magazines, dog leads, carrier bags both empty and half full of shopping. I never dared to go in the bathroom!

But Pam died last year and it took her family months to clear her house out. And I miss her kindness, endless generosity and ever open door to me. She was more than a tidy house. She was a brilliant, loyal and much loved friend.

Look past the mess witchypoo, it just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.