Prince Andrew

Well I don’t know about you Cool but the idea that a sex offender is just one of a possible choices of friends that someone may not approve of is risible? Do you know who PA is? Do you know he represented the UK at home and abroad? Donned a uniform as Colonel-in-Chief? Lived off our money? And you say he was guilty of stupidity? Are you saying that all royalists think being friends with a paedophilic is acceptable? I think that’s quite insulting.

Suzy
I do not miss the point that you have made which in my understanding is that he should not have remained friends with Epstein. I agree with you. If this had happened to me, I would have not remained friends with this man.

However, I may not approve of some of your friends, as you may not approve of mine. We all choose to do what we want whether we make wrong decisions or not. PA made a wrong decision remaining friends with this man.

I still fail to see how PA can be hung out to dry because he made a mistake staying friends with this man he is guilty of stupidity nothing else at the moment.

Suzy you may not be a Royalist, but I am. I am entitled to my opinion and I am afraid you will not convert me. I live in a country that absolutely loves the Royal family and it appears in their news and magazines in a positive way as well as negative way when they see newsworthy snippets.

And Cool you still seem to be missing the point of the utter utter unacceptably of PA being a member of JEs circle.

Also Cool if you look at the Wiki extracts I’ve posted, you’ll see numbers in square brackets. If you go to the original entry, you’ll see these numbers refer to the source of the fact given.

This Wiki is to be believed - I’ve been following this case for years and read multiple sources over the years. If you’d read my pos properly Cool you’d see that I said I’d made up the bit about the chef and the girl. But actually given the unprecedented destruction of the visitor logs you do wonder who visited him and for what purpose?

Suzi my previous post was written before I saw you had lifted transcript from Wiki.

Oldgimmer1
I agree with you, that’s the system. Plea bargaining isn’t good, but, that is the system over there and built really for the rich. I have now read Wiki. Suzi is correct if Wiki is to be believed he did serve his sentence by still be allowed to work going back and forth to the office in chauffeur driven car etc. However, I didn’t read that he had his own chef or the other accusation that you made.

I prefer facts, always have. If Wiki is to be believed, his death is dubious and could be connected to higher agencies which will never be exposed. The men are also so high profile I cannot see much coming of this except the girls being paid off from Epstein’s estate.

Going back to plea bargaining, I find the UK style also abhorrent ie, downgrading murder to manslaughter because of diminished responsibility.

PA is innocent until proven guilty and I am afraid this is trial by the press. The UK press has a bad reputation and for good reason.

I understand that PA has his Navy pension.

The rest being a handout from the Queen?

He'll not starve any time soon though.

It would be great to start getting rid of some royals, um sorry I mean streamline the taxpayers burdens ? but do we still pay them a pension, I sincerely hope not with all the millions they have in their accounts already from us.

For those of you who care about holding opinions based on facts rather than misogyny, here’s the red of the story. Look at the dates, think how long PA knew for certain what his mate was involved in. Then ask yourself on what planet of decency wasn’t there more of a public outcry 9 years ago? PA had been on borrowed time for years - and don’t tell me HM didn’t know all this then.

Non-prosecution agreement (NPA) (2006–2008)
Quick Facts
In July 2006, the FBI began its own investigation of Epstein, nicknamed "Operation Leap Year". It resulted in a 53-page indictment in June 2007 that was never presented to a grand jury.[61] Alexander Acosta, then the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, agreed to a plea deal, which Alan Dershowitz helped to negotiate,[96] to grant immunity from all federal criminal charges to Epstein, along with four named co-conspirators and any unnamed "potential co-conspirators". According to the Miami Herald, the non-prosecution agreement "essentially shut down an ongoing FBI probe into whether there were more victims and other powerful people who took part in Epstein's sex crimes". At the time, this halted the investigation and sealed the indictment. The Miami Herald said: "Acosta agreed, despite a federal law to the contrary, that the deal would be kept from the victims."[8]

Acosta later said he offered a lenient plea deal because he was told that Epstein "belonged to intelligence", was "above his pay grade" and to "leave it alone".[45] Epstein agreed to plead guilty in Florida state court to two felony prostitution charges, register as a sex offender, and pay restitution to three dozen victims identified by the FBI.[8][79] The plea deal was later described as a "sweetheart deal".[97]

A federal judge later found that the prosecutors had violated the victims' rights in that they had concealed the agreement from the victims and instead urged them to have "patience".[98][99]

Conviction and sentencing (2008–2011)
On June 30, 2008, after Epstein pleaded guilty to a state charge (one of two) of procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18,[100] he was sentenced to 18 months in prison. While most convicted sex offenders in Florida are sent to state prison, Epstein was instead housed in a private wing of the Palm Beach County Stockade and, according to the sheriff's office, was after ​3 1⁄2 months allowed to leave the jail on "work release" for up to 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. This contravened the sheriff's own policies requiring a maximum remaining sentence of 10 months and making sex offenders ineligible for the privilege. He was allowed to come and go outside of specified release hours.[89]

Epstein's cell door was left unlocked, and he had access to the attorney room where a television was installed for him, before he was moved to the Stockade's previously unstaffed infirmary. He worked at the office of a foundation he had created shortly before reporting to jail; he dissolved it after he had served his time. The Sheriff's Office received $128,000 from Epstein's non-profit to pay for the costs of extra services being provided during his work release. His office was monitored by "permit deputies" whose overtime was paid by Epstein. They were required to wear suits, and checked in "welcomed guests" at the "front desk". Later the Sheriff's Office said these guest logs were destroyed per the department's "records retention" rules (although inexplicably the Stockade visitor logs were not).[101] He was allowed to use his own driver to drive him between jail and his office and other appointments.[89][101]

Epstein in 2013
Epstein in 2013, photographed for sex offender registry
Epstein served almost 13 months before being released for a year of probation on house arrest until August 2010. While on probation he was allowed numerous trips on his corporate jet to his residences in Manhattan and the U.S. Virgin Islands. He was allowed long shopping trips and to walk around Palm Beach "for exercise".[89]

After a contested hearing in January 2011, and an appeal, he stayed registered in New York State as a "level three" (high risk of repeat offense) sex offender, a lifelong designation.[102][103] At that hearing the Manhattan District Attorney argued unsuccessfully that the level should be reduced to a low-risk "level one" and was chided by the judge. Despite opposition from Epstein's lawyer that he had a "main" home in the U.S. Virgin Islands, the judge confirmed he personally must check in with the New York Police Department every 90 days. Though Epstein had been a level-three registered sex offender in New York since 2010, the New York Police Department never enforced the 90-day regulation, though non-compliance is a felony.[99]

oldgimmer I doubt very much if Jeffrey the plumber would have been allowed to leave the jail every day to go to work and be in a the local jail rather than a prison.

I just hope we stop giving him our hard earned money, why should we keep a sleeze bag like him, kick him off the payroll.
He should be treated like any other person who has done the same as him, nobody should be above the law.

@maw - I thought we were talking about Epstein's previous sentence?

@ beckett - not sure what the rules on plea bargaining are in the US or whether they're linked to how much money/influence you have. Or whether you can plea bargain certain crimes but not others.

If you haven’t read this already, and you do, you may well feel sick to your stomach. Imagine how those girls felt.

Legal proceedings
First criminal case
Initial developments (2005–2006)

At the time of his death, Epstein was being held at the Metropolitan Correctional Center (pictured here in 2010), awaiting trial for sex-trafficking.[82]
In March 2005, a woman contacted Florida's Palm Beach Police Department and alleged that her 14-year-old stepdaughter had been taken to Epstein's mansion by an older girl. There she was allegedly paid $300 (equivalent to $380 in 2018) to strip and massage Epstein.[83] She had allegedly undressed, but left the encounter wearing her underwear.[84]

Police began a 13-month undercover investigation of Epstein, including a search of his home.[61][85] The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) also became involved. Subsequently, the police alleged that Epstein had paid several girls to perform sexual acts with him.[79] Interviews with five alleged victims and 17 witnesses under oath, a high-school transcript and other items found in Epstein's trash and home allegedly showed that some of the girls involved were under 18, the youngest being 14, with many under 16.[86][87] The police search of Epstein's home found two hidden cameras and large numbers of photos of girls throughout the house, some of whom the police had interviewed in the course of their investigation.[84]

A former employee told the police that Epstein would receive massages three times a day.[84] Eventually the FBI compiled reports on "34 confirmed minors" eligible for restitution (increased to 40 in the NPA) whose allegations of sexual abuse by Epstein included corroborating details.[88] Julie Brown's 2018 exposé[8][61][89] in the Miami Herald identified about 80 victims and located about 60 of them. She quotes the then police chief, Michael Reiter, "This was 50-something 'shes' and one 'he'—and the 'shes' all basically told the same story."[8] Details from the investigation included allegations that 12-year-old triplets were flown in from France for Epstein's birthday, and flown back the following day after being sexually abused by the financier. It was alleged that young girls were recruited from Brazil and other South American countries, former Soviet countries, and Europe, and that Jean Luc Brunel's "MC2" modeling agency was also supplying girls to Epstein.[86][90][91]

In May 2006, Palm Beach police filed a probable cause affidavit saying that Epstein should be charged with four counts of unlawful sex with minors and one count of sexual abuse.[84][92]

Epstein's defense lawyers included Roy Black, Gerald Lefcourt, Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz, and former U. S. Solicitor General Ken Starr.[83][93]

After press reports that Epstein would be charged with one count of aggravated assault with no intent to commit a felony, Palm Beach Police Chief Michael Reiter accused the Palm Beach County state prosecutor, Barry Krischer, of being too lenient and was instrumental in bringing in the FBI.[83] Instead Krischer convened a Palm Beach County grand jury, which was usually only done in capital cases. Presented evidence from only two victims, the grand jury returned a single charge of felony solicitation of prostitution,[94] to which Epstein pleaded not guilty in August 2006.[95]

oldgimmer
If he was going to plea bargain etc.
The man’s dead.

I think oldgimmer that the point is that if he had been Jeffrey the plumber he would not have been able to do that.

Do you really think that if he hadn't been wealthy and with influential friends he would have still served his time in such an easy way?

FFS.

@suzie whether or not Epstein's sentence was "meaningful" or not is down to the prosecuting state. It does not matter a jot what any of us think. It is what it is. If he's able to plea bargain then he's going to do it. That's the system.

Love a cartoon I’ve just seen ...

‘Uber here. Your driver today is Andrew and he’s outside in a Bentley’

?

suziewoozie
Until I read your post Thurs 21st 23:11:51 I had no idea that that was how Epstein had served his sentence. I knew that only one of the charges was proceeded with although I believe there was enough evidence to proceed with charges of trafficking many more girls as young as 13 or 14 years.

That is incredible - how many other paedophiles are treated with such leniency in the USA?

?????

^ police from here went over to interview the American woman. I think that would be a perfectly acceptable solution in the circumstances^

Maybe we could swap him for the American woman??

Sorry I meant MegHan of course

Maybe a few other members will do a Meghan ( if they've any sense).

It will be as usual with the exception of Harry and Megan not
joining the family.

Christmas dinner at Sandringham will be interesting this year, for all the wrong reasons.