"Regressive and sexist"

That link is horrific, PinkQuartz!

What exactly is a 'genuine' trans-woman, as mentioned by Maddyone? How do we define that?

Well obviously I got that wrong ladies. I thought if someone was living as a woman, presumably pre the op, that probably people wouldn’t mind, or even know, that the person was trans and therefore not mind them using the female facilities. Mind you, that would only work in ladies toilets that obviously have cubicles, and not in female changing rooms at the gym or swimming pool.
Obviously I am wrong, so therefore it seems the only way forward must be mixed facilities, toilets, changing rooms etc. But I seriously don’t like the idea of mixed changing rooms at the shops ie M+S. I don’t know, what a dilemma.

Sue, maybe I worded it badly, but I meant a person living as a female, and undertaking the drug therapy, and either having had, or going to have, the op.

And I meant as opposed to a person using the excuse ‘I’m self identifying as a woman’ in order to access female spaces such as the ladies loos or changing rooms.

maddyone
Most 'transwomen' don't have any op and a lot of them don't use hormones either.
They claim there should be no need for them to alter their bodies in order to be accepted as their 'true gender'.

Absolutely fine with me, whether they have any treatment or not, as long as they also accept their true biological sex.

Why is there no campaign urging men to be kind and to accept transwomen as in men's spaces, I wonder.

Why is there no campaign urging men to be kind and to accept transwomen in men's spaces, I wonder?

Thanks for the clarification, Maddyone!

Well said, FarNorth

NotTooOld I watched a debate by the Heritage Foundation on YouTube about the difficulty that people who regret transitioning have because it is something that can't be talked about. Their talks are usually too right wing for me but they do have some interesting ones.
One of the speakers had I think (my memory is not so good) transitioned from female to male. He was brought by a grandmother who wanted a boy and dressed him as one. He thought he was a boy in his early years. He now regrets transitioning and was arguing that no research is being done into the problems for people who are sorry and why they made the decision in the first place.
They also had a good debate on surrogacy which can be great or not but we aren't able to talk about the 'or not' cases.

SueDonim


sorry I didn't think to put up a warning....but it is a very clear example of a reason for men to be kept out of female spaces and it is noting to do with transitioning.
The problem lies with men who are not transitioning but want to take advantage

No, no, the emoticon wasn't aimed at you, Pinkquartz! Now it's my turn to . I am angry at that man's behaviour and that we are supposed to roll over and accept it.

No the way forward is not more mixed spaces.
Look at the link I put up...yes it is horrible and that is why we do not want mixed spaces.

You cannot go through life thinking everyone is good and stay safe. Look at the link this guy is boasting. he put himself on the net to show what he likes to do in women's changing rooms and with women underwear.

For transitioning why not ask the tra women to use the mens?
As FarNorth has out in her post above....ask men to be kind. Why do we always expect women to accomodate everyone else?

If a person has transitioned or is transitioning then I would say a card declaring this could be shown perhaps?
I know I have seen TRA women in the loos and it is fine. I have lived with some and cooked dinner with them.....it was a long time ago so there wasn't really the op possible. If people are just getting on with their lives then it doesn't even draw your attention.

I agree pink. Women are supposed to give up their women only spaces. And I reiterate, it isn’t just about feeling secure, or threatened but about dignity and privacy.

How are we keeping men out of female spaces pinkquartz? We aren't! Nobody has their genitals inspected and passed as female before entrance to the ladies loos or changing rooms! The arguments on here just have no logic.

But according to a strict interpretation of the proposed legislation, if someone who is obviously male (6 ft 3 tall, muscles like Pop-Eye, tattoos, beard, bald head, hairy chest and hipster jeans revealing a glimpse of hairy arse, bulge in crotch) were to enter the ladies' changing room and say "I am a woman", then the ladies already in there are supposed to continue removing their uter garments, and even their underwear if they are changing into swimwear.
If one of them grabs a towel to cover herself and replies, "Are you really a woman? I don't think I believe you!" he will be able to accuse her of verbal sexual abuse and win his case.

I hadn't finished - All this with no more evidence than his saying, on that day and at that time, that he was justified in being there, because he was a woman.

This also raises the question of bi-gender people. Those who identify as male on one day and as female on another. What about those who identify as gender neutral? It is all a mine field and there are no easy answers.

There is a simple solutions toon - 3 changing rooms male, female, and anyone

suziewoozie

yes you have the best solution

Hetty58

yes there is logic here, more importantly the law now allows women to challenge a man in a female space but it wont be if things get tighter in law.
That is the reason to make a fuss now.
Then you will be the criminal if you find a man in the ladies.

What is confusing is the way mixed gender spaces give men legal access to a place where women are. And then he can do anything that is not against the law and you will just have to put up with it.

Beckett

it doesn't really affect bi-gender people because the fuss is about men invading female spaces. If a person is a genuine tra or bi it doesn't really matter. It is the men using the changes in law to invade that matters.

Just a quick trivial comment referring to Pinkquartz’s link in an otherwise serious thread - I don’t think I have ever been in a store where it is permitted to try knickers on. Even swimming costumes have a notice asking for underwear to be kept on if trying them on.

I think you can try knickers on Tweedle, but like swimming costumes, it has to be over your own underwear. The thought of wearing knickers that the man in the link was trying on makes me want to puke.
Suzie has the best solution, make, female, and anyone, although that’s actually what I meant up thread when I said mixed. I meant that male and female would remain, with the addition of mixed or anyone. Having said that, I would choose female every time. And judging by most people’s posts, it would seem most of us would.

a notice asking for underwear to be kept on if trying them on.

Do you suppose that man ignores the notices? Surely not.

"Mixed" isn't the solution! Not when there will still be Men and Ladies rooms too! You can't force people who would otherwise choose Ladies, that identify as Ladies because they are trans, to choose Mixed!

The only fair solution is just Mixed or retrofitting stalls into private rooms with actual walls and actual doors-

There will of course need to also be private rooms to accommodate disabled and at least one big enough to fit a family-

How is "Mixed" fair to those who would choose Ladies because they are biological Ladies?

To those who don't 'feel comfortable' unless the changing room is single sex?