"Regressive and sexist"

This idea that trans women must support themselves is equivalent to the ideas in the 1970s when Erin Pizzey set up the first women's refuge. It is a stage I would have hoped we had passed, recognising now that all victims of violence need protection. I don't suppose those asking trans-women to do it themselves will admit to opposing women's refuges then, but it is a pity their ideas have not moved on.
Incidentally Erin Pizzey's ideas on domestic violence, rejected by many, are very interesting and give a small glimpse of the violence in many relationships which women are sometimes actively involved in. I suppose if you have never met violent women you might imagine it was all one way, once you have known some you realise it isn't always.

But do the more vocal examples of trans women also believe that there are vulnerable people in all sections of society, and that the fears of non-trans women of attack are as real as that of vulnerable transwomen?

Non-trans women fought to set up a network of refuges where they would be safe from the fear as well as the actuality of subjugation. As someone has already commented, trans women could have their own network in parallel. Their position is not identical with that of those who have always been female, and their special needs and anxieties could be better addressed.

suziewoozie I suggest you listen to the evidence given by a refuge volunteer to the report about women's spaces-I could google it and find you it but I've posted it before and you don't appear to listen. She said there are people who are totally unsuitable for a refuge place, and that includes some women, but they had a rigorous risk assessment procedure that made sure no one who was a threat to other women was admitted. I could tell you that there are women who are violent and who would victimise other vulnerable women just as men have, that there are trans-women who are equally vulnerable. But you don't want to hear that. You prefer to think one section of society is more or less vulnerable than another. I prefer to think that there are vulnerable people in every section of society. You are welcome to your prejudices just don't expect me to buy into them.

trisher I’m at a loss as to why you persist in thinking this is all about safety and are ignoring feelings. Take women’s refuge - women are there because they ave been abused by men - physically, emotionally, raped. Many refuges.( most? ) have shared spaces - kitchen, living room, bathroom a woman needs to feel as well as be. safe which will mean not bumping into male bodied people. Quite frankly if trans women need refuges they can damn well campaign and fundraise for themselves as women had to and not take away women’s rights to women only safe spaces

Any lack of safety in any women's refuge is due to inadequate screening of people using the scheme and not to trans women.

London the best resourced woman's prison and refuge in the world should be a safe woman's only space.

...and if prisons weren't so dangerously overcrowded with outsourced POs with little training, if women's refuges hadn't had their funding slashed (200 women turned away daily in 2017 & it's worse now ....) this is not down to trans people.

Lack of loos is a serious issue for many women. It's never trivial wetting yourself in public for lack of them and I mention them here because there's so much mention of them on this thread.

Interesting that no one has explained how the law would be enforced, or who would challenge trans women and inspect them for penises.

Oh London how I wish this were just about loos. Your post makes it sound as if you are trivialising what is a serious issue. Have you read up on the Canadian waxing case, the Canadian women’s refuge case? Have you read up on the self Id women in a womans prison here who sexually abused other inmates? The woman attacked by a self id woman who when giving evidence in court was forced by the judge to refer to her attacker as ‘she’.It’s not a joking matter - build a million women’s loos - these TRA aim to erase women and I for one am not laughing.

Ladies loos are such a scarce resource that any incursion gets women riled up. Build loads more public ladies loos, say I.

Exactly pink I might just might have some sympathy if I thought that men who self id as women were genuine rather than misogynists. But just look at what’s happening in Canada where the fight back is at last finally starting but some natal women’s lives have been made unbearable thus far. And wtf are the police doing recording crimes by self assigned gender in the UK?

Londongranny

I only just absorbed your last point "there are not a huge amount of transpeople in the UK"

so why are we losing female only loos and other places then? We are catering to a small minority over the feelings of millions of women. Not right.

Londongranny

I take your point about a transwomen needing to live for a year as a woman before being given the op. That must be difficult though it will depend on various factors too.

But there is a thread currently on Gransnet title "AIBU Rescuing a Damsel In Distress" which I think speaks clearly of the threat all woman live under. Most of all when young but it never really stops. So I still contest that women need female only spaces. If a trans woman has to wait a year that is not really a big deal in the scheme of things.

Regarding 'the op' trans people are not allowed it until they have lived as a woman for at least one year. That includes not using the gents. For my friend she had to go back to day one after she turned up at the clinic in a trouser suit. Very stylish, naturally. It wasn't a man's safari or three piece suit but a woman's trouser suit. A trans person's life is not really their own while they are waiting. The rules are very proscriptive. Are there women who have never donned a pair of trousers, ever? I can't say my vagina transmogrifies into a dangling appendage when I wear trousers.

As to the domestic violence against trans people, the UK doesn't collect those figures as such but non-official studies show that about 19 percent of trans people experience domestic violence as opposed to about 8 percent of women and 4 percent of men. The 4 percent includes violence from men in a gay relationship. Women who abuse their male partners are much rarer but it's also possible that men are too ashamed to admit they're victims.

Murder figures are harder because there are not a huge amount of trans people in the UK and even one extra murder per annum would look like a massive increase because of the small sample size.

Londongranny

I used to have friend who was trans.....in London. I liked them and never felt awkward with them.
I think it is different when you know a person.
Also you mention one of them had had the op. So that was a real commitment, not just a self identified person.
Again I feel there is a difference.

Trisher

When statements are made like trans women are more likely to be attacked I think I don't know this. Is this true? Where is the evidence?
I don't believe this.
Women are attacked daily, by people they know and by strangers.
I have lived my life since being about 12 knowing that i have to "be careful".
Knowing that men are a danger. Not all men. As I got older I relied more on my gut feelings.
But many men make a woman feel uncomfortable even when they are not going to attack them.

Perhaps when someone becomes a trans woman they begin to feel what the rest of us always feel when alone.
ie Vulnerable.
A woman is a target. Fact
so a young trans girl has just become a target in a manner they did not used to know because they were not female.

I hope this makes sense. Many women feel uncomfortable with men they do not know Fact. Even when they are NOT going to be attacked.

This is a very difficult question. When I am using a public toilet I have no idea if the person at the washbasin next to me is trans or not.

However, if I was made aware that person was a trans woman (rather than someone who had gone through the surgical procedure), I think, in all honesty, I would feel uncomfortable - and no I can't explain why.

...by the way, when I was in my twenties I had a friend (female, heterosexual) with quite elfin looks, short hair, flat chested, didn't often wear a frock. She was always being challenged in loos and told to get out because other women thought she was a teenage boy.
I also remember a manufactured tabloid panic about lesbians using ladies loos back in the day. I have once been assaulted in a ladies loo. By a drunk belligerent woman who was convinced I was eyeing up her husband.

....but even if she wasn't quietly stylish and looked like a dog's dinner with garish make-up, I'd still love her.

I am no expert in this field but I know trans people. One was my union rep (I didn't know she was trans for ages although it wasn't a secret , she just didn't trumpet it to all and sundry). She was a brilliant rep. Never raised her voice, intelligent and effective.
What I do know is trans and gay children are really badly bullied in school and playground. They are the children most likely to take their own lives. Trans women are more likely to be attacked and murdered than other women, more likely to be victims of domestic violence.
The current atmosphere towards trans people does remind me of the prevailing antediluvian attitudes to gay people in the past with the same tired old prejudices being trotted out (it's a phase, etc) and I do think we can all do better in treating people with more respect, whatever is or isn't between their legs. People should be judged on their character.
My other trans friend is lovely. Kind, a real asset to her community and those who know her, love her. She had her op forty years ago. I'm perfectly happy to trot off to the Ladies with her. Two ladies of a certain age having a lovely (old) girls night out. She's certainly quietly stylish and she's the honest friend I'd take clothes shopping with me. She's also the person I'd share major worries with. She's lived life and is wise.

OK suppose you get you legislation saying that anyone with a penis is not permitted in a women only space, would you like to explain how this will be enforced?
I do think the first requirement of any law is that it should be enforceable.
It is already illegal for anyone (penis or not) to assault anyone else. And if you want to consider assaults upon prisoners you might look at the whole picture
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States

I would prefer to not have to share designated space-

A woman attracted to another woman discovers the woman she's attracted to has a penis because the woman is actually a man and so is no longer interested therefore her right to prefer a woman instead of a man is treated as a prejudice instead of a preference- How is that fair?

There are millions more women than trans women, why don’t they count when set against the desire of trans women to use their private and safe spaces?
No trans women should be in any women only space whilst they are still in possession of a penis.

I am not a cis woman either, I am a woman.

I also do not want to be referred to as a cis......I am a woman.