"Regressive and sexist"

I'm not sure about bra fitters. Personally it's not something I have ever been tempted to try. So I'm really not sure would a woman be essential for the job? What if the woman was lesbian would that exclude her? Would a trans woman be better or worse? There are a lot of gay men in the fashion industry presumably some women are happy being fitted for clothes by them. Perhaps all you can do is choose someone who can do the job and let the customer decide if they want to be fitted by them. Sorry if that doesn't provide the simple answer you wanted.

I had to look up that scrotum thing as I had no idea what that was all about. I know a man who gets his back waxed. He goes to places that do that sort of thing. Apparently lots of men get waxed these days, including their nethers. Sean Connery could have done with a back wax. I always found his hairiness very unappealing.

I understand about DV refuges. I honestly think if there were enough refuges for everyone suffering violent abuse that would help. Austerity has dreadful consequences.

What I object to is the idea that pre-op trans women are dangerous violent rapists and some people think it's OK to be really hateful towards them. Some trans people are vile, some women are vile, some men are vile. It's the singling out of trans women as dangerous and 'other' that's fuelling the hate.

I know full well the outcome - I also know this person harrassed threatened and blackmailed women many of whom were poor, non white and ended up losing their small businesses. This person was a self identifying woman with a penis who had huge huge support in the TRA community both here as well as Canada. So where would you draw the line as to what people like this should have rights? The right to be a bra fitter in M and S?

As you appear not to know the court in Canada ruled for the beauticians suziewoozie so I really don't know what you want me to say. I do not approve of anyone whatever their gender victimising or harming another person in any way. I have said this before.

And it’s women that are the losers in this battle for their very existence. Not TRAs. Ever

I don’t think of myself as a feminist I am a feminist. And I’d take your views more seriously trisher if you explained your thinking referencing some of the specific cases I mention. You could start with the rights of trans women to have their scrotum waxed by women.

I do wish those who think of themselves as feminists would stop accusing other women of saying things they haven't said and of holding opinions they have absolutely denied. I suppose they think that because they are harping on about women only spaces they are somehow better feminists, when actually what they are doing is using the same methods of smear and accusations used by men for centuries. Try accepting that actually there are other ways of thinking and that because someone recognises and understands the complexities of a situation, and wants people to live in peace and harmony it does not mean they support the victimisation of anyone. Perhaps then they could stop regarding this as a battle (because there are no winners in wars), begin looking at reality and work together for a succesful outcome. (But I'm not holding my breath)

True!

I use a wedge to hold the door open. Not making any particular point, just my personal use of wedges.

trisher, if my life experience as an androgynous looking individual has taught me anything in the area of attraction and preference it's to be forthcoming from the onset- Doing so has invited many open, lengthy discussions-

Others chose to openly label me as something I wasn't- I respected that also because they made what they thought of me known-

Deceit, dismissiveness and exercises of entitlement drive wedges between people- And since wedges are only used to "force" I personally would choose another tool to accomplish the task-

And perhaps the supporters of TRA on here could also explain why a rape committed by a man with a penis should be recorded as a crime committed by a woman when said man decides to identify as a woman?

Terf is not an objective description. Thinking women shouldn’ t be forced to wax men’s scrotum or a woman forced to share a prison cell or changing room with a woman with a penis doesn’t make me a terf but a woman who defends women’s rights to dignity, privacy and safety. Thinking a lesbian is transphobic for not wanting sex with a woman with a penis takes women hating to a whole new depth. Terf and cis are misogynistic words and using them to criticise women is beneath contempt

I must admit my views have been shaped by a completely barking radical feminist commune in the 80s that had only female farm animals (presumably they used AI and killed and ate any male offspring) and said if any of them (the RadFems) ever gave birth to boys they'd have them adopted.

I initially thought it was a weird and off-key piece of satire but they were completely serious. They were consumed with hatred. I have no idea what happened to the commune. Hopefully it imploded when they turned their hate on each other as there were no males to hate.

I view terfs the same way, not that I've closely examined their arguments because the first thing I've noticed is the hate and sensationalist stance so I'm not prepared to engage with that level of vitriol. I'm a feminist but I don't hate men. I'd love to smash the patriarchy though!

I saw a video on twitter, ages ago now, where a trans woman got into a nasty altercation with some terfs. It looked like the trans woman was the aggressor until I saw the video (taken by someone else) where the terfs attacked the trans woman first. Naturally the terfs had edited out that bit of their footage.
They're like the Britain First of Feminism.

And I’d love to hear you views on the Canadian scrotum waxing case. Should those women just have provided the service?

If is a very big word trisher

If someone believes they are female, dresses as a female, lives their lives as a female but happens to still have a penis (for whatever reason) how are they being deceitful? Just because you don't know something does not mean someone is deceiving you.

trisher, I'm aware of the facts that you shared- And similar fears continue today- I've no idea how many more generations it would take to "teach the fear out of people" or if it's humanly possible to do- Such issues being rooted in us/them/ignorance/fear since?

But I do know this, the most compassionate people are quite clear about boundaries-

Somebody up-thread indicated in so many words that people equipped with a penis are already using women's bathrooms, without womens knowledge of it- Therefore, no harm done- Yet that very act/practice has a facet of deceit attached to it as well as dismissal-

While I'm confounded as to what a solution might be, I do recognize deceit and dismissal-

I didn't finish what I was saying, or review and edit my post before it sent, so please ignore typos and other errors. It would be good to have a small window in which to edit posts. Even a minute or two would be enough to pick up mistakes, or to pull back a post that sent before the poster was ready.

*The part that concerns me the most is when men pretend to be trans in order to violate a woman or young girl. This has happened and no doubt will happen.
We are leaving the door open on this is we simply allow men to self ID.*

This sums up my feelings. It's not transwomen in general who are the problem - it is men being able to self-ID and the fact that there is no consideration of the feelings of women. And yes - I agree that this is another example of the male agenda being put ahead of that of women, and the shouting down of those who disagree.

I take on board that men in the process of transitioning beed to have access to loos,and going into the gents' is likely to be problematic. There will be a solution to this issue, I'm sure - but as long as women are just told to make way for men whether we like it or not, there will be resistance. Proper discussion, and a recognition of the needs of women is the only way that this will get sorted. Screams of 'TERF', and accusations of prejudeice and intolerance, are ironic

rosecarmel You do realise that at one point women were all regarded with the same suspicion. They were considered unpredictable, subject to emotionl outbursts, unable to reason and generally to be distrusted because they were ruled by their wombs. It's where the term hysterical comes from. The Greeks thought the womb moved around the body and caused bother. Some people are deceitful it's not confined to trans-people.

I read somewhere that only about 12% of male to female transsexuals have had surgery, gender reassignment surgery.

I agree, women and girls need their own changing spaces and toilet facilities.

I am glad that I don’t work, I would be very afraid of offending anyone in this gender minefield.

One of my close cousins was in a loving relationship with a m- f transsexual woman and we all joined into having family social events etc. They were like anyone else and were accepted.

pinkquartz ????????????

There's something that comes across as deceitful about trans people that triggers distrust- I've no idea how that can be addressed to ease the fear of the "idea" of shared space-

pinkquartz could you please give evidence of that accusation.
You may not realise it but there are trans-women using women's facilities right now. You just don't know they are.

The part that concerns me the most is when men pretend to be trans in order to violate a woman or young girl. This has happened and no doubt will happen.
We are leaving the door open on this is we simply allow men to self ID.

There needs to be a discussion of what to do about this. Do trans women even acknowledge that women feel so vulnerable in the first place?
Not just of violence but unpleasant things said which is beginning to be recognised as harassment.

Perhaps transwomen could become involved in discussions about this or do they just want to demand their "rights" ?
Which to me sounds like the way men are, entitled and expecting to be heard at the expense of women.

Is there any talk on the net about transwomen taking time to respond to women's fears?