"Regressive and sexist"

What does living as a woman involve, can you describe it. How does it differ from living as a man.

You are doing it again suziewoozie attributing thoughts and ideas to me I have never expressed. Could you try to be more understanding please. I find it quite distressing that the only way some women can respond to hate speech is with more hate speech. It's how the patriachy has always worked. It's just sad to see women embracing it.
pinkquartz one of the problems is that self ID is the only way to change gender. You have to live as a woman for two years, effectively then self IDing. Is there anther way to do it?
It isn't helpful to make all-encompassing remarks such as trans women never show sympathy or understanding to natal women. I'm sure some do.

pink and others this is worth a read

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/lgb-alliance-group-transphobic-alison-bailey-lesbian-gay-bisexual-a9169091.html

Alison Bailey one of the leaders has had complaints made about her to her Chambers ( she’s a barrister) by TRAs in Stonewall - her employment is being threatened because she believes as a lesbian it’s not transphobic to not want to have sex with a self id-ing lesbian woman with a penis. Yes really really.

Yes - the attacks on lesbians for being transphobic is one of the reasons why a group,of LGB people have spilt from Stonewall and set up the LGB Alliance

Pink thanks for your support - I was feeling pretty beleaguered. I do want to reiterate that I think sex segregated spaces whatever they’re for are not just about safety but also dignity, privacy, feeling not just being safe.

Why do we have sex segregated facilities. If it's ok to have people with a penis in womens facilities, what is the purpose of sex segregation.

Most lesbians (but not all) I know don't want to be anywhere near a penis.
that is not being transphobic....how ridiculous

I thought that calling a lesbian transphobic was the one of the most stupid things I have ever heard.
were they serious?

Galaxy

what do you mean?

And maybe you could explain the split in Stonewall - I expect you think that lesbians who don’t want to have sex with ‘lesbians’ with penises are transphobic? Have you any idea what lesbians have been subject to from TRAs in Stonewall?

No-one here tha ti can see is saying anything vile like all Tra are violent rapists that is a lie.....
some people think that there is the room for some bad men to use this ruling to take advantage.

no-one hates Tra. well I don't but I don't like to see hard hard fought for women's rights being eroded. And there is a danger of this.
And why don't transwomen start reassuring us instead of attacking us?

I am a bit confused as to why some posters think we have sex segregated spaces.

suziewoozie

yes to what you said.

Trisher

I couldn't get back earlier to reply
my examples would include the transwoman in the women's prison who carried out rape and sexual assault and the Canadian examples.

BUT I notice there is no response to what I asked....I have no problem with anyone being trans...I have a problem with self ID
None of my business if people are just living their lives why would I care?..

do not try to insult me saying there are people blah blah....as if I would care....you think I mind, I do not

I mind that women lost the Hampstead swimming pond and I mind that there seems to be no regard for how women are feeling about losing their safe spaces.

You are misunderstanding me.
I have no issue with trans just the self ID part I believe needs talking through.

And most of all I never see a trans woman showing any empathy or sympathy for women. Can you show me where this kind of thing might be? a discussion or a post?

And I have been friends with a few trans women in my life so far. I didn't care. it is the person I judge not the choice.

What about three options - male, female and gender neutral, It’s not hate to want to allow women to have their own spaces. It’s hate when you deliberately harass and intimidate natal women who are fighting to maintain women’s rights which is what TRAs do - the wax my scrotum or else transwoman in Canada for example. Read up what’s happened to Meghan Murphy in Canada and numerous female academics in the UK, read up on the hatefilled intimidation of A Woman’s Place and then we can discuss feminism and why TRAs want to eradicate the concept of biological womanhood.

Yup. Contrary to populist opinion (I use the word populist advisedly) feminism is about EQUALITY but just like in Orwell it seems just like 'but some are more equal than others'.
I don't think trans women are trying to erase non-trans women. I think some people are trying to erase trans women. I seriously doubt some of the most vitriolic anti-trans voices in society know anyone trans, nor wish to. It's all gone a bit Littlejohn (who contributed to the suicide of a trans woman). www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/mar/22/richard-littlejohn-transgender.

My granny was a very wise woman. She said whenever you see the 'othering' of other people in society without clout and power (I paraphrase, she never used the term 'othering') substitute the word 'Jew' and see whether it looks dodgy and hateful.

She lived through dreadful dangerous times (and was in Germany in 1933). I fear we are in another dreadful dangerous time. She always told me to beware of the signs To be honest, I never thought I'd see such times. I was woefully complacent.

lemongrove

with knobs on ??????????

I couldn't get back online til late tonight.
in what way am I chicken?

I do wonder given that surgery can be difficult to get and that to obtain a Gender recognition certificate you have to live as a woman for two years what you expect trans women to do suziewoozie? Should they perhaps place themselves in a sort of purdah for two years or even longer if they cannot get surgery? Should they use men's toilets even though they are dressed as a woman? You want to ban them from places because you don't feel safe, where then are they supposed to go?

A LOT of hate in here. Not what feminism is about at all.

It’s not just their penises - it’s why they want to be in my space. My space.

I’ve twice had bra fittings with shops that didn’t measure but when they brought the bras for trying on, we were in a small cubicle, the adjusting involved close contact and some inevitable physical touching . I would not want a transwoman involved in that process - my first question would be wtf was attracting them to that role? It’s not transphobic to not want someone with a penis dressed as a woman being in close physical contact with me in a confined space. I do not trust trans women who have so little respect for natal women that they want to share their spaces and make them feel at the very least uncomfortable and at the worst physically threatened. A man genuinely wanting to transition should have some understanding of how a natal woman might feel threatened by them.

I never knew that London Granny I was imagining quite intimate examinations. In that case presumably anyone could do the job. There are a lot of people I don't trust suziewoozie sometimes I am probably right but not always. I would hate to feel I distrusted someone simply because of their physical attributes.

trisher
Really experienced bra fitters just look at you (clothed) and know the size! There was a brilliant bra fitter in the big M&S at Marble Arch who could literally size you up with a look. I was gutted when she retired.

A gay man is not self id-ing as a woman and has zilch to do with being trans. A gay man is a clear type based on sexual orientation. Not gender reassignment. I basically do not trust trans women who have not transitioned and show no signs of wanting to. I do not trust a trans woman who also says they are a lesbian and wants sex with a ‘proper’ lesbian. I once shared a bed for a night with a gay man ( long story) and felt perfectly safe - slept like a baby. I would never have done that with a trans woman with a penis. No trust at all.

Elizabeth Warren professed that she was Native American, a belief she treasured that was based on family stories passed down from one generation to the next - When she was challenged by Donald Trump on her heritage she went ahead and had a DNA analysis done- The results revealed that she has a percentage of Native American DNA-

However, DNA testing isn't how Native Americans determine ancestry- Elizabeth then offered a sincere apology to Native Americans for any harm she caused by her claims, that she listened to them and learned-

All of this took place above board, out in the open, openly discussed- She didn't dismiss their preference -