a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality?

Excellent post GrandmaOz you have encapsulated brilliantly the disquiet many women feel on this matter.

A good explanation of the legal position from Mhairi Black MP:

So many lies in that speach:

1. There IS evidence from countries with self ID that it has caused harm to women. She may be of thd minset that they are all isolated individuals and "dont tar all transwomen.... blah blah blah...." but the evidence IS there. She just choses to either ignore or discount it.

2. The response to the consultation was NOT exclusively positive, I was aware at the time of organisations and groups that objected, so that is just an outright lie

3. Transwomen experiencing male on transwoman violence of course need support, protection and services. But it is NOT TRUE that women experiencing male on female violence are having the same experience and face the same issues as transwomen. Transwomen do NOT have the same lived experience of mysogyny as women. They may face their own unique challenges, but not the same ones. To state that is to ignore all sex discrimination and the fundamental imbalance of male on female violence.

Yet again, labour throw women under a bus. "Equality" for "all" whilst putting women back 50 years

The "not all transwomen" line when self ID turns out in practice to be more horrendous for women than imagined is as weak and telling as the "not all men" response to #metoo

Because it is the same thing. The same mysogyny

Fennel the Beatles song comes from the long history of cross-dressing which has always existed and was found in the past mostly in arts and music worlds. There are a number of songs referring to it. The Kinks' Lola, Lou Reed's Take a walk on the Wildside -"Plucked her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs then he was a she."
It's not a new phenomena men wanting to be women. It was just kept quiet. Which makes you wonder if men dressing as women really pose a threat of rape in toilets and changing rooms why haven't there been many cases over the years? After all these women the songs are about probably retained their original body and were unlikely to have had surgery, but almost certainly used female facilities.

What you mean like this guy in the 70s trisher?

Yeah totally new the threat to women from autogynephilles...

regina-georg.tumblr.com/post/169982396299/reminder-that-serial-killer-dennis-rader-aka-btk

Thanks trisher.
Another one is the Cheers theme song.
I find the current attitudes very confusing mainly because of the range of names used.

regina-georg.tumblr.com/post/169982396299/reminder-that-serial-killer-dennis-rader-aka-btk

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6139305/Transgender-prisoner-rapist-identifies-woman-admits-sexually-assaulting-fellow-inmates.html

#fingersinears #LALALAICantHearYou #DoesntHappen #TERFSAreHystericalSillyWomen #NotAllTransWomen #NotAllMen

I wonder how many of the 'woke' people insisting MtoF trans people are women understand that around 85% of them have no medical or surgical treatment to their bodies. A lot seem to assume that transgender means the same as the old term "transexual" when there was surgical and medical intervention.

Many of these transexuals, such as Miranda Yardley, fully accept they are still men, whatever interventions they have and fully support gender critical women (as can be seen on Mumsnet).

Miranda Yardley is a good example as are many other older transwomen/transvestites/trans kink people/autogynaphilles who are being thrown under a bus by woke "trans allies" too

They are being told by yoke young kids that they cannot self identify as male "trannies" because ALL WOMEN ARE REAL WOMEN

Woke not yoke lol

Urgh failing again, wish you could edit posts: "all transwomen are real women"

notanan2 I don't disagree with your opinions regarding the speech by Mairi Black, but why do you go on to accuse Labour of "Throwing women under a bus"? When Mairi Black is not a Labour M.P.?

I’m an unapologetic fetishist, which is a dirty word in other branches of the trans community - Grayson Perry, famous (older) artist & self identified transvestite (apparently a slur if you are woke cos REAL WIMMIN!!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TRANNIES WITH FETISHES!!!)

Sorry Ilovecheese. Almost all political parties are at it. Labour, libdem, green.... I'm just fed up with ALL the MPs who are either buying into this, or suppressing logic and doubt to either fly under the radar or win woke votes

UKIP are I think the only OFFICIALLY gender critical party although there is some dissent from some individual labour and conservative MPs on the issue..

Even Laverne Cox (trans actress) got flack from woke trans activists for saying the lines "transexual fron transelvania" when playing the lead role in the Rocky Horror Show

Self ID not only redefines & erases women as a sex, but also lesbians as a sexual orientation, and whole subsets of the trans community.

So are you really such a LGBQT ally if you arent gender critical?

Trisher, your post about cross dressing enlightened me. Also the post from someone else about how 85% of cross dressers had no plastic surgery to make them look more female was helpful. Thus far cross dressing is joyful. Medicalising and the medical lexicon of long Greek words for cross dressing is harmful.

I don't like unnecessary medical or surgical interventions, and I wonder if the 15% who do choose elective plastic surgery are mentally and emotionally distressed so that perhaps CBT or some other psychotherapy might be more effective and less drastic.

Thanks Alexa I'm not sure about the joyful part. I think most of the people at the time the songs were written lived in a hidden world having left their homes and families to be able to live the way they felt they needed to. One of the things I had hoped was happening was more acceptibility of differences to the norm. Sadly it seems one lot of prejudices is being dumped and another being introduced.

Trisher, when the culture undergoes any big change the conservatives and other intransigents get panicky. This is uncomfortable for all concerned of course. I am sure that "more acceptability of differences to the norm" will happen to cultural notions of gender as in other cases of cultural change.

When I wrote "joyful" I was thinking of the film 'Kinky Boots' That was a comedy of course, and your "not sure about the joyful" is probably the more correct perception. I don't foresee the cultural change as growing into a tragedy.

notanan2 I believe the Communist Party also does not agree with current transgender ideology.

A thorny complicated problem.
I find it chilling that people can be sacked or arrested for an opinion.
I think stereotypes need strongly challening, gender shouldn't be defined by stereotypes anyway.
I wonder what the point is of collecting statistics on sex or gender anyway. Eg a biological male can commit a crime, self-ID as female and it will be listed as a crime committed by a woman. What does the figure actually tell anyone?

Hugshelp in my workplace when they collect protected characteristic data (race, disability etc) on the staff satisfaction survey, they no longer ask sex. They ask gender identity.

There already have been instances of sex offenders being counted as female rather than male transwomen. Top tip: in this country "rape" legally can only be done by a penis. There is other legal jargon for object penetration. So ALL "female" rapists are transwomen.

Alexa self ID isnt progress it is regression. Those of us who are critical of it arent opposing moving forward, we are opposing moving backwards.

Gender steriotypes should not define our being as women.

Current trans ideology isnt about doing and wearing what you want, whatever your sex.

When we were young I suspect a lot of us underestimated the number of homosexual people in the population as sexual relations between men were illegal and so homosexual men had, in the main, to keep their private lives very private.

Thinking back, nobody really discussed lesbians, but there seemed to be quite a number of single women, including a number of teachers at our all-girls school, who lived together as pairs. We tended to put this down to having lost their fiance/boyfriend in the war, which of course might have been true in some cases.

Fast forward fifty years and I guess that most of us now have friends or family in same sex relationships. It seems quite unremarkable.

I can only think of a very small number of transgender people I have actually come across, as opposed to reading about. One is a young man, born a little girl, who expressed a strong wish to become a boy from the time she was able to speak.

I suspect that if we fast forward another fifty years (most of us won't be around to see it) there may be many more transgender people and again that will have become unremarkable.

I can only think of a very small number of transgender people I have actually come across, as opposed to reading about. One is a young man, born a little girl, who expressed a strong wish to become a boy from the time she was able to speak.
Sad that that child was led to believe that the things they wanted to do were "for boys" from such a young age

In the future I hope that boys can play dolls and girls can shun dresses without society telling them that that miss matches with their sex!

In the case of that child she was never told the things she wanted to do were "boys things". She had a sister and a brother who all shared toys and activities. What she felt so strongly about was much more fundamental. She felt she was in the wrong body and now, fortunately, it has been possible to change that.