a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality?

why would a woman want to keep those bits?

Rhiannon Styles wrote, in The New Girl, that they were all set to schedule a penis removal op when, joy & delight!, the penis started producing wonderful orgasms, instead of just hanging around. (Rhiannon was taking hormones and had got used to no penis action, in their sexual relationships with men.)

Rhiannon then decided that there was no real reason to go ahead with the op as the feeling of being a woman was real enough without it, and the orgasms were great.

books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_New_Girl_A_Trans_Girl_Tells_It_Like.html?id=OLeHDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

court order made to mumsnet by a transactivist because they were "deadnamed"

I don't know about the court order, notanan2. Had the transactivist got hold of an individual's name?
If so, how did they do that?

('they' is a handy stand-in pronoun, I find)

Not rising notanan2 carry on ranting. Enjoy yourself. Be as obsessed as you like. You don't need anyone else. The thread is yours!

Transwomen are not the same as women. They are trans identifying MALES.

'cause science/facts/biology
'cause plenty of transwomen are well aware that they are male

Why is that such a contentous statement to you trisher

Nobody said that there are no violent women.

YOU said that transwomen and women had an equal likeliness to be a risk.

Before you try to drag this thread down a #NOTALLMEN rabbit hole, lets look at the science of it:

It used to be assumed that male violence was correlated to testosterone levels, but studies of death row prisoners found that testosterone levels were not significantly different to the general population, so what was driving male violence (which there is ample evidence of having a different pattern and levels of prevalance to female violence)? A gene on the Y chromosome was then found that when triggered, causes violence.

Testosterone gives means (strength) but does not cause intent.

So... now to bring this back to self ID , firstly, remember that not all who self ID have hormone therapy! However the rebuffle to stating quite simply that transwomen are males in terms of natural predisposition, is always that hormone therapy negates that. But it doesnt. It might reduce physical advantage slightly (the skeletal advantages remain) but does not reduce predisposition to intent to do harm.

It’s all getting ridiculous IMO,
Unless a person is being deliberately rude & offensive by purposely addressing another person (human) by a title they do not like/choose/ then why cant we just apologise (if we are the perceived offender) OR better still just drop titles
altogether.

You see notanan2 there is as I have said before no point in debating with you I said no such thing I said there are dangerous women as well as dangerous transwomen. I really wish you would stop translating what I say. And this idea that there are not violent women is ridiculous. I could take you to places where the women would make mincemeat of you if you said the wrong thing. They may not have your "Warrior Gene" but they have bloody good fighting instincts. And yes they often encourage their sons to violence (and their daughters) It is for some a way of life. Just because you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I'm not going to encourage your obsession by debating any further.

I do wonder why if a person wants to identify as a women that they also want to keep their male genitals?
It seems strange to me. I remember being a young girl and talking with friends about those dangly bits between men's legs and then going ugh ! (we were about 13 or 14)
What seems normal to men ie male genitals, doesn't appeal to a female so why would a woman want to keep those bits?

It is an actual gene. You can be tested for it. They wont find it in women or transmen. It is AS LIKELY to be in transwomen as in any other males.

You said upthread that transwomen are as likely as females to be dangerous, and that is simply not true. They are as likely as any other MALES to be dangerous. They are not females

Trisher that is not what the Warrier Gene means!

It is a genetic predisposition to violence which is not present in females.

Women who make a point of saying "excuse me" at the end of each lane to the manspreaders are as affected by mysogyny as the women who give up bothering and swim around them! How on earth you can blame womem for manspreading, just because they dont put energy into scolding them, is beyond me!

"You think all women are victims" its not about what I think Trisher. Statistically, scientifically, historically, evolutionary, factually men are a higher risk to women than women are to women. That is why we have single sex prisons and hospital wards and refuges because if women are vulnerable, they are less at risk in female only spaces.

There are plenty if spaces that are shared. The spaces where women are vulnerable arent and shouldnt for good solid reasons. In an ideal world they wouldnt be needed, but they are!

I believe Celtic women were famous warriors and notorious for the cruelty and extreme punishments they subjected prisoners to. Doesn't mean I think all women are going to torture people.

Google the "Warrior Gene"
Only males have it.
It is found in many violent criminals.

Women dont have it! They just dont!
Transwomen dont change their genes!

notanan I wasn't surprised when you disagreed with me. About swimming all I will say is that I know women who swim very well and take the space they need. I know others like you who don't. It's not mens' problem it's yours.
You obviously believe all women are victims. I don't.
I believe there are always extremist behaviours in every area of life. But most of us don't live our lives believing that these will in any way impact on us. Sometimes extremist behaviour does and there are always tragedies. But what I would hope for my GD is that she will live her life aware of the rights of most people to live openly and freely without fear or repression. That she will recognise most people are good and avoid those who are not, whatever their sex or gender. That she will listen, but make her own judgements, and not suspect that every man she meets, or every transwoman she encounters is out to rape or abuse her. That she will have strength and confidence and will be able to live her life without believing that women must always be victims.
I know there are exceptions and your concentrating on them distracts from the real issue and the fact that there have been men living as women (and women as men) amongst us for centuries and the fact that there are now a few seeking to use the issue for their own nefarious objectives does not mean we should tar and feather them all. Any more than the fact that one footballer rapes a woman means that we should regard all footballers as rapists.

The point of #metoo is that there arent many women out there who havent ever been sexually assaulted by men.

Thats not to say that no woman has ever abused, but it is not so common that its normal !

You say you champion instincts but also want girls to suppress instincts that the rest of the animal kingdom have!

A girl who is conditioned to supress all logic and reason and accept that transwomen = real women is less likely to have her instincts turned on if she does come across another womam who is up to no good. Because you cant turn off your awareness of a common threat but then stay instinctively aware of a rarer one.

trisher its basic anthropology, other primates know that females are safer in groups with other females!

Nobody is suggesting that girls go around handing out their bank details and copies of their house keys to stranger women 'cause women never ever do anything bad..

But in a vulnerable/dangerous situation, other women are your safer bet!

If you ask is your nurse going to be a woman, a member of staff who says "no" because its going to be a transwoman can find themselves under a serious disciplinary.

FarNorth what about the court order made to mumsnet by a transactivist because they were "deadnamed" (i.e. their criminal past was shared with women they were targeting online so that the women would know what they were dealing with & stay safe.....)

Dont overestimate your anominity online. Doxing goes on.

Trisher your post is so flawed. Transwomen pose the same risk to women as men do, because thats what they are!

Female, properly female killers are so rare that they become household names, but men kill women and other men with such frequency that its often barely news, and sometimes isnt even reported on beyond the court round ups

But its not just major crimes, there is in built mysogyny even in "nice guys" which transwomen activists demonstrate on a regular basis.

Do you swim? I swim. I swim well so I lane swim. Women make themselves small, keep out of the way, men spread out making women have to make themselves small. Not all women at ladies only swim slots are conservative/religous/neurotic, some just want a break from making themselves small when men physically dominate lanes because its exhausting.

Your post is like saying why bother with distinguished cycle lanes you might as well cycle down the middle of a motorway cause sometimes some accidents happen on cycle lanes too.

The other point to remember is that for people who need same sex police officers or nurses or doctors or social workers, they wont request one in advance if they hear all female names/pronouns when they ask who they'll be seeing. And may not have the confidence to do so on the spot when someone clearly male books in.

M&S has a transwoman bra fitter, if you book in now you wont know in advance if you (or your nervous shy 14 year old) will be getting a male or female fitter unless you know that transwomans first name. And if you ask the staff you book with if your fitter will be female, they will say "yes" either way

No-one knows who you are, on here, so there is no personal danger.
I use a person's name or initials, wherever possible, to avoid using a wrong pronoun.

Far North it is a necessity in order to allow us to discuss the issue at all.

The Doxing, death/rape threats and sending police to the door of women who "deadname" and "missgender" make it so.

At the very least threads get pulled/accounts suspended for not using chosen pronouns, sometimes even when talking about a time in the past when the transwomen themselves went by male names and pronouns cause ALWAYS REAL WOMEN or if they regularly switch aliases

I've read it Far North didn't bother to click on the test about colour because I felt it was just trying to confuse things. I would hope no one would try to impair or influence a girl's protective instincts and that's where I have a problem with this argument. It implies that all women- everyone entitled by birth to be called 'she- are good. That girls never need to be on their guard when encountering natal "shes". But that is wrong there are women who are dangers to other women. They are probably just about as rare as transwomen who are a danger to other women. But they exist so what we should be warning girls about are people who will seek to damage them in any way not just men and trans women. So convincing as this article may seem its very concept is flawed.'

I'm very unhappy with the practice of calling transwomen 'she' and 'her'.
Have you checked out the article called 'Pronouns Are Rohypnol' which is a few posts back in this thread?

CeCe has a completely different gait to the women she races against. Because biology is real and she has a male pelvis and no amoung of "identifying" will change that!

I now refer you back to the title of the thread....