a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality?

"some other man may genuinely be a biological woman who was once a man , this also happens.

How does this happen, alexa?"

FarNorth and Notanan, I was thinking specially about Chelsea Manning with whom I sympathise.

Explicitly the attributes of a specific biological sex (species homo) I think, are anatomical genitals, sex hormonal balance, and secondary sexual characteristics such as pelvic structure , breasts, and voice box. I don't know if the individual's DNA is one sex or the other. Now you have challenged me I will look it up.

some other man may genuinely be a biological woman who was once a man , this also happens.

How does this happen, alexa?

GrandmainOz I want to give you a virtual standing ovation. You have articulated it beautifully

However some other man may genuinely be a biological woman who was once a man , this also happens.

When? How? Plastic surgery doesnt change your sex! You still have a male/female skeleton. Male/female dna etc

Grannyactivist some feminists do call certain types of M-F cross dressing "womanface" to highlight the parrallels with blackface.

A man who plays at womanface do not share the experiences of women. They retain their male privilidge just as blackfacers retain their white privilidge.

I have been to several drag shows at social events and like blackface, it is never flattering, so claims of it being a homage are BS. It is always talk of "fishy flaps" fridgitity or promiscuity, or lack of traditional beauty standards. I dont understand how this is still socially acceptable. If any other group mocked up as a less privilidged group in such a nasty way, it would NOT be allowed!

Now drag and trans SHOULD be separate entities but under the ALL TRANS WOMEM ARE WOMEN banner, they are not.

GrandmainOz, I agree with you . Women are more are more at risk from men than men are at risk from women.

It's becoming more and more difficult to distinguish men from women. A man in a burka if he is small and shaven looks like a woman. A man who chooses to dress and behave like a woman may still be a man in disguise. However some other man may genuinely be a biological woman who was once a man , this also happens.

The problem is dishonestly pretending to be vulnerable when actually strong. GrandmainOz well describes the problem .

Grandmainoz, What an interesting polemic. You brought quite a number of issues up that I had not thought about.

I have always accepted that mind and body can be different genders, but that there is very little you can do about it. No matter how much cosmetic surgery someone may have, or hormones they may take, their intrinsic physical gender cannot change. A physical sample taken from a transgender woman will on analysis be found to contain the XY chromozones that define maleness and all the physical and health aspects that go with it.

What we need to do is except each person as they are and if a man chooses to dress or behave in a way, usually identified with a female gender just accept it, as we do with a woman cnsidered to be very masculine.

However, like you. grandmainoz I find the very narrow definition of 'femininity' adapted by almost all transgender women, to put it mildly, unsettling.

M to F transgenderism is in my view an act of the deepest misogyny.
A Male decides that he "feels" female. He then uses his overarching notion of superiority - coming from being a Male - to assert his RIGHT to be a woman if he so chooses.
This person is able to erase the factual state of being a natal woman because he feels it's his right to do so.
Woman erased.
Women must give up their safety and privacy in women only spaces, accepting men in their public bathrooms and prisons.
Lesbian women must be willing to accept rape by a transgender person because to say they are not attracted to penises is discrimination towards the fella in the dress.
We have fought tooth and nail for women's rights and for gay rights.
We now face the most insidious attack on those hard won rights.
Men are literally pretending to BE us in order to erase us.
The rights and preferences and wishes of women are being trampled and women are being sacked for stating scientific,biological facts.
The fact that so many of the M to F transgender people dress and act in the most stereotypical femme way is a dead giveaway to their true thoughts on womanhood.
They don't see us as individual people they see us as a homogeneous group which they have fetishised to the point that they must have this identity for themselves. This mythical feeling of being a woman.
All women need to get over the idea that because we rightly stood up for gay rights we have to stand up for transgenderism. The two issues are as different as night and day.
Gay people did want to crush straight people's rights. They want equality, respect, acceptance and safety.
M to F transgender people want dominance, mind control and a life where they are exempt from the rules of decent society.
Their erosion of women's rights is snowballing at truly frightening speed.
Read the Cotton Ceiling. The threat from these people is real.
I feel we're in a dystopia where a lesbian can be threatened (or worse) for not wanting sex with a biological male. Where if I take my granddaughter into the ladies to change her, I am not supposed to protest if I find a biological Male in there.
Women are going to lose their very identity if this dangerous ideology is allowed to grow unchallenged.

This may seem to be slightly off topic, but blackfishing (white people appearing to pose as black or asian, especially youtube 'influencers') is regarded as reprehensible. Surely there are real parallels here with how the experiences of being born female are being belittled and denied by men who co-opt the female gender, read this quote and see if you agree with the similarities:
An influencer’s ability to wipe off the ‘blackness’ added to their appearance following a social media post or video haul, demonstrates their inability to relate to the racial struggles women of colour experience from possessing these features. It also conveys the ease in which these influencers can remove themselves from the negative stigma that follows people of colour. The safeness of feigning racial ambiguity by superficially mimicking black or biracial visual features allows them to avoid the social, negative repercussions of actual, biological blackness.
www.thesimplepress.co.uk/home/2019/1/21/blackfishing-a-fine-line-between-appreciation-and-appropriation
Is it okay to pose as, or pretend to be, black or asian - which we saw when Rachael Dolezal posed as a mixed race woman because she 'she self-identified as black', although her critics stated that she committed cultural appropriation? And if it's not okay, then surely we should be asking tough questions about the appropriation of gender.

?

Here is an update from Maya Forstater, the person who is fighting back after being sacked for not believing that a man can 'be' a woman.
.........................................................................................................

Update on I lost my job for talking about women’s rights

Dear all,

What a week!....I launched the crowdfunder on Sunday May 5th with some trepidation, and it had reached £50,000 within two days and our target of £60,000 within three. CrowdJustice say that is the fastest campaign this year. On Tuesday I braved the BBC Politics Live show, and on Saturday I got a deafening round of applause from the packed house at the (excellent) Lesbians on Chairs event.

Today I received news that the case has been accepted by the Employment Tribunal and we have been given a date for a preliminary case management hearing in July (this is just a short initial hearing to determine how the case should be conducted). I will keep you updated as far as possible, but things may be a bit quiet until the hearing itself, which is likely to be late in the year.

Thank-you all for your support; everyone who shared my story on social media and told their friends about it. People who know me and people who don't. Everyone in the support thread on Mumsnet and Facebook. Everyone who donated and who left a comment. Here are just a few of them:

"Donating because I feel it's not safe to discuss this at work - and that shouldn't be the case."

“For me and my daughters and our right to speak the truth”^

"I may not agree with your views but I 100% support your right to express them without fear of losing your job. Good Luck."

“Thank you for taking this case to court. I want my children to grow up with diversity and equal rights but also with freedom of speech and safe spaces for women”

"As a gay man I feel it is imperative for gay and lesbian rights and safety that sex be recognised as distinct from gender. I wish Maya well and consider her extremely brave."

“Free speech must be the basis of any civil society and that includes the right to debate and to disagree”

"I can't believe women are having to fight so hard to get their voices heard in 2019. Please fight on Maya."

"This case needs to be heard on behalf of all of us who are too scared to say the obvious. From a sexual abuse survivor. Solidarity & good luck."

As you know the money means have been able to get my legal team in place; I will be represented by Peter Daly at Slater & Gordon and by Anya Palmer at Old Square Chambers.

But just as importantly the speed and strength of support has been a demonstration of how important this issue is; how many women are afraid to speak up about our legal rights and safety. And how many people are concerned about the closing down of free speech.

James Kirkup wrote in the Spectator "The reason those women are too frightened to speak out about sex and gender now has a name: Maya Forstater." That's a big responsibility (and its lucky I have an unusual name!). What has been particularly heartening to see is that my act of putting my name on the line (following on from other women who have been braver and earlier than me) has made others step forward and feel a bit braver. I particularly liked this comment:

"My second pledge. This time under my name. You are changing things already, Maya. Good luck."

Lots of love

Maya

Following on from the event linked, above, there is to be a meeting for parliamentarians in the House of Lords, this Wednesday.

Standing For Women is pleased to announce our meeting at the House of Lords, hosted by Dr Lord Moonie entitled "First Do No Harm : The ethics of transgender healthcare."

3.30 - 5pm 15th May 2019, House of Lords Committee Room 2A.

www.standingforwomen.com/so/bdMghGY8C?fbclid=IwAR1X5fJzUqtrEPReuEP9mntrJQdidAUV3DTHcqQUKcnMW-wClNZMF1KKkdc#/main

Anyone who is at all concerned about the current situation, especially with respect to children, please ask your MP to attend this meeting if they can.

David, you may well be correct in your observation.
The point I was making, though, is that 'lesbian' is now supposed to include male-bodied people who identify as female.
Not only do they expect to be included as 'lesbians', they vilify as bigots any female lesbians who state that they are attracted only to female-bodied people.

OK I accept that lesbian activists are targeted for bullying and worse but I see many female couples that openly show their affection in public and dont seem inhibited in the least. Occasionally you do see men but it seems much less acceptable in public

Trans activists not trans activities

Thanks FarNorth I realised it was sold out but didnt check the date as thought it might intetest others to find similar events if they are intetested in gay womens points of view on this.

Reason being, most people who consider themselves supporters of gay rights initially by default support trans activities assuming they are complimentary rather than conflicting points of view. By listening to members of the lesbian and cross dressing and detransitioning and kink community it shows that the gender critical point of view does not come from a puritanical pearl clutching point of view

David felt he knew enough of the issue to state that men are the oppressed party in all of this so I wont assume ignorance on his behalf

Tbf, David may be one of the many people who are unaware of the harassment that women, especially lesbians, are enduring.

Try googling 'cotton ceiling', David if you'd like to hear the point of view of transwomen (men, usually with penises) who consider themselves to be lesbians.

Although the event linked by notanan2 has passed, here is its description which is quite informative :

Lesbians On Chairs
by Standing For Women
Description
"The very worst of Lesbian erasure is upon us as our society embraces the mutilation of young lesbian bodies with chemicals and surgeries. How did we get here and how can we stop it?

Our panel is chaired by

Anne Ruzylo, an Ex prison officer, who recently resigned as Women’s Officer of Bexhill and Battle Labour Party, has many years experience as a trade unionist, including serving on the TUC LGBT committee.

Our panellists are:

Sheila Jeffreys: a lesbian feminist writer and activist. She taught sexual politics at the University of Melbourne, where she is now a professorial fellow, before retiring to the UK in 2015. She is the author of 10 books, and her latest is The Lesbian Revolution: lesbian feminism in the UK 1970-1990, 2018.

Julia Long: a lesbian - one of the old-fashioned kinds that doesn’t have a penis. She has worked in education, local government, academia and the women’s sector, and is currently a researcher in the field of male violence against women. Julia is a long-time Lesbian Feminist activist and her book Anti-Porn: The Resurgence of Anti-Pornography Feminism was published in 2012 by Zed Books. She is currently writing a book on how men have managed to convince so many people – including most ‘gender critical feminists’ - that there is such a thing as ‘transgenderism’. Julia has the great good fortune to live in Lesbian Feminist community and wants all women to know that this is possible. Her hobbies include sitting on chairs, eating pizza and naming men as men.

Dovile Lapinskaite: graduate in politics, philosophy and history of art, lesbian radical feminist, activist and independent artists.

Julia Beck: a writer and organizer from Baltimore, Maryland. She helps produce a monthly radio broadcast for Women's Liberation Radio News. Last year, she represented lesbians at Baltimore Pride and on the Law and Policy Committee of Baltimore City's LGBTQ Commission. She is currently at the fore of the fight for women's rights in the USA."

Not to mention the post above about how it is disproportionately "butch" female girls who are being put forward for mutilatiin and chemical sterilisation.

Lesbians who are being bullied for not accepting that they should sleep with male "lesbians" who have penises

Women who are being stalked and threatened with violence for daring to say no to men redefining us...

WTF David??

Women and girls who want to live as men have a much easier time, they are just “butch”, they are accepted as such with very little notice taken.

Biggest load of tosh I have read in a while...

Since when do girls have it easier than boys?

Considering that its cross dressing boys and men who are doing the bullying and threatening lesbians and other "butch" women with rape violence and death in this "debate" I really do not know where you are getting your notions from...

The OP particularly specifies a mans internal “feeling” that he is a woman. To me until he has the operation and hormone treatment he is male and capable of functioning as a male, so regardless of his “feelings” he should be regarded as a man. Just because he behaves and dresses as a woman does not give him any female benefits or privileges that he might want.
I feel really sorry for children who are in that position because they feel different from other boys and they are going to get bullied because of it, they cannot win either way.
Women and girls who want to live as men have a much easier time, they are just “butch”, they are accepted as such with very little notice taken.

When at crowded venues and the womens "area" has a line a mile long outside of it, I utilize the mens -- because theirs "never" has a wait time - When you have to go, you have to go ..

If the rise in young FtM transitions is a question that interests you, look into this:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/lesbians-on-chairs-tickets-59843824490

Sold out but will be others

Notanan, I found your previous post. I must have thought that the quote was your own.