a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality?

Thanks Alexa I'm not sure about the joyful part. I think most of the people at the time the songs were written lived in a hidden world having left their homes and families to be able to live the way they felt they needed to. One of the things I had hoped was happening was more acceptibility of differences to the norm. Sadly it seems one lot of prejudices is being dumped and another being introduced.

Trisher, your post about cross dressing enlightened me. Also the post from someone else about how 85% of cross dressers had no plastic surgery to make them look more female was helpful. Thus far cross dressing is joyful. Medicalising and the medical lexicon of long Greek words for cross dressing is harmful.

I don't like unnecessary medical or surgical interventions, and I wonder if the 15% who do choose elective plastic surgery are mentally and emotionally distressed so that perhaps CBT or some other psychotherapy might be more effective and less drastic.

Even Laverne Cox (trans actress) got flack from woke trans activists for saying the lines "transexual fron transelvania" when playing the lead role in the Rocky Horror Show

Self ID not only redefines & erases women as a sex, but also lesbians as a sexual orientation, and whole subsets of the trans community.

So are you really such a LGBQT ally if you arent gender critical?

Sorry Ilovecheese. Almost all political parties are at it. Labour, libdem, green.... I'm just fed up with ALL the MPs who are either buying into this, or suppressing logic and doubt to either fly under the radar or win woke votes

UKIP are I think the only OFFICIALLY gender critical party although there is some dissent from some individual labour and conservative MPs on the issue..

I’m an unapologetic fetishist, which is a dirty word in other branches of the trans community - Grayson Perry, famous (older) artist & self identified transvestite (apparently a slur if you are woke cos REAL WIMMIN!!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TRANNIES WITH FETISHES!!!)

notanan2 I don't disagree with your opinions regarding the speech by Mairi Black, but why do you go on to accuse Labour of "Throwing women under a bus"? When Mairi Black is not a Labour M.P.?

Urgh failing again, wish you could edit posts: "all transwomen are real women"

Woke not yoke lol

Miranda Yardley is a good example as are many other older transwomen/transvestites/trans kink people/autogynaphilles who are being thrown under a bus by woke "trans allies" too

They are being told by yoke young kids that they cannot self identify as male "trannies" because ALL WOMEN ARE REAL WOMEN

I wonder how many of the 'woke' people insisting MtoF trans people are women understand that around 85% of them have no medical or surgical treatment to their bodies. A lot seem to assume that transgender means the same as the old term "transexual" when there was surgical and medical intervention.

Many of these transexuals, such as Miranda Yardley, fully accept they are still men, whatever interventions they have and fully support gender critical women (as can be seen on Mumsnet).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6139305/Transgender-prisoner-rapist-identifies-woman-admits-sexually-assaulting-fellow-inmates.html

#fingersinears #LALALAICantHearYou #DoesntHappen #TERFSAreHystericalSillyWomen #NotAllTransWomen #NotAllMen

regina-georg.tumblr.com/post/169982396299/reminder-that-serial-killer-dennis-rader-aka-btk

Thanks trisher.
Another one is the Cheers theme song.
I find the current attitudes very confusing mainly because of the range of names used.

What you mean like this guy in the 70s trisher?

Yeah totally new the threat to women from autogynephilles...

regina-georg.tumblr.com/post/169982396299/reminder-that-serial-killer-dennis-rader-aka-btk

Fennel the Beatles song comes from the long history of cross-dressing which has always existed and was found in the past mostly in arts and music worlds. There are a number of songs referring to it. The Kinks' Lola, Lou Reed's Take a walk on the Wildside -"Plucked her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs then he was a she."
It's not a new phenomena men wanting to be women. It was just kept quiet. Which makes you wonder if men dressing as women really pose a threat of rape in toilets and changing rooms why haven't there been many cases over the years? After all these women the songs are about probably retained their original body and were unlikely to have had surgery, but almost certainly used female facilities.

The "not all transwomen" line when self ID turns out in practice to be more horrendous for women than imagined is as weak and telling as the "not all men" response to #metoo

Because it is the same thing. The same mysogyny

A good explanation of the legal position from Mhairi Black MP:

So many lies in that speach:

1. There IS evidence from countries with self ID that it has caused harm to women. She may be of thd minset that they are all isolated individuals and "dont tar all transwomen.... blah blah blah...." but the evidence IS there. She just choses to either ignore or discount it.

2. The response to the consultation was NOT exclusively positive, I was aware at the time of organisations and groups that objected, so that is just an outright lie

3. Transwomen experiencing male on transwoman violence of course need support, protection and services. But it is NOT TRUE that women experiencing male on female violence are having the same experience and face the same issues as transwomen. Transwomen do NOT have the same lived experience of mysogyny as women. They may face their own unique challenges, but not the same ones. To state that is to ignore all sex discrimination and the fundamental imbalance of male on female violence.

Yet again, labour throw women under a bus. "Equality" for "all" whilst putting women back 50 years

Excellent post GrandmaOz you have encapsulated brilliantly the disquiet many women feel on this matter.

A good explanation of the legal position from Mhairi Black MP:

www.facebook.com/EqualityNetwork/videos/1072768679588752/

Just to cheer everyone up:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaWT7cEoqpY

I came across this on youtube - where does it come from?
"Sweet Loretta Martin thought she was a woman
But she was another man
All the girls around her say she's got it coming
But she gets it while she can

Get back, get back
Get back to where you once belonged
Get back, get back
Get back to where you once belonged
Get back Loretta, go home2
Were the Beatles prophets ?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/suspended-labour-peer-lord-moonie-quits-in-transphobic-tweets-row-8jrtwdbll?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2uisVWiU4lg4hmONE5OSyoWHgEqyP1OeyjkR9hYgwJQmQtRnp2LBd6AHw#Echobox=1557914488

Chelsea Manning may think gender identity trumps sex. And may chose female as their gender identity.

Your gender identity may alter, but your sex does not.

Chelsea manning will never be a natal biological woman. There is no surgery for that. It just cant be done.

Men who have hormone therapy and the plastic surgeries are still male, even if they are trans identifying male transwomen

There is no ambiguity about Chelsea Mannings biological sex. She is a M-F transwoman. Biologically male.