Gdcs' bedtimes - frustration!

Leaving a child "screaming" in distress is abusive.

Leaving a child whinging while they wind down and learn that bedtime is not play time is not.

Extreme sleep training can be abusive. There are plenty of caring loving ways to go about it. There is nothing NATURAL about kids being up and stimulated at night time! "In the wild" humans would have no artificial lights and noise at night, and would have to be quiet to avoid attracting predators. Some "natural" parents should maybe ponder that..

My grandchildren were the same ( 2 & 5). Then my daughter moved house, put them in the same room and let them get on with it! Worked a dream and now they chat away before dropping off when they are ready, usually within half an hour. I think they just needed company and hated being on their own.

Self-soothing and self-settling are abusive techniques to get children to sleep. As a parent or grandparent, you're basically saying that if you cry at night I’ll ignore you regardless of your cries and screams.

However, the parents that stay with their children until they are asleep are accused of raising entitled brats.

There's no way to win as a parent.

I could have written Witzends post myself, one branch of our AC/GC are exactly the same - GC still awake at midnight then children and parents falling asleep on chairs and sofas. But when they stay with us we have set bedtimes, bedtime stories or 1/2 reading and then lights out. They just accept it without argument because it's 'Nanny's house, Nanny's rules'.

I was in your position with one grandson Grannybags - it was really upsetting. I couldn’t leave anyone weeping on a regular basis.

I like your thinking Crafycat.

Oops...not brexit unrest thread..

You people are over-estimating people.

The type of people who could contribute to civil unrest in a no deal Brexit are not necessarly the types who have a history of violence/aggression and extreme views.

A few days of food/fuel supply instability, gridlocks on roads, delays in wage payments... and it would happen. And it wouldnt be a small group with extreme political views.

I am not criticising the parents in the OPs post BTW. I am talking about the impossible position they find themselves in, as their peers will talk about sleep training as if it is the WORST thing a parent can do...

So they must feel a bit trapped in the middle IYKWIM

There is a LOT. A LOT. Of extremely severe criticism on social media of parents who sleep train & teach young children to self settle.

IMO good sleep hygiene is such a valuable gift to give children.

My own mother had issues when we were young and we did not have a good bedtime (or daytime but thats another thread..) routine...

As an adult I still massively struggle with winding down and getting off to sleep at night no matter how tired I am. I now take sleeping pills just to function and worry about the side effect.

Not being able to "self settle" is not necessarily something people grow out of if the habits arent there as children. Lots of adults like me struggle with "sleep hygiene" and it affects EVERYTHING: physical health, the amount of exercise you can do (if tired from bad sleep), relationships, work...

Lots and lots and lots of stuff on social media about the bad effects of sleep training (which IMO only apply to EXTREME borderline abusive sleep training, not normal sleep training, but all are tarred with the same brush) but no consideration of the BENIFITS of good sleep hygiene, and the risks of not having it!

I agree with OP, Trisher is misinterpreting the post.
The OP has done nothing wrong, she has not interfered, she is just worried for her family.

Give the parents New Toddler Taming by Dr. Christopher Green and get a copy for yourself. Chris Green is an Ozzy paediatrician. He is excellent on sleep issues - very pragmatic and simple common sense! The book is written in a light and humorous style, so is very accessible. I think that even if the parents don't change their behaviour, you can apply 'gran's rules' and believe me, children do accept that and will respond. They know you love them, so leaving them kindly, but firmly when it's time to sleep will work after the first few times, as long as you stick to your guns. BTW I think it IS your business if you are doing the babysitting!

I had my boys 1 year apart and became a single parent very early on. From the day they were born it was a bath at 6pm, a feed a cuddle tucked up in bed by 7pm, they didn't know anything else so never rebelled. Being consistant pays off big time.

Could be the solution rests with you as the grandparents...refuse to overnight with kids until they’ve taught them to self settle.

My D rarely slept for longer than an hour, 3 times in 24, right from birth. By the time she was 12 months old I was exhausted, mentally and physically, and living on my own.
One day of no sleep, I finally snapped. I dismantled her cot and bed, removing them from her room and left her with the mattresses and cushions on the carpeted floor, duvets and blankets plus soft toys, books and a low light bulb made up her new bedroom. Her bathtime routine was moved to 8pm then story, cuddles and into her bedroom by 9.30pm and a stair gate fixed to the door. She very quickly settled into a 3 hour sleep routine anytime between 9.30 and 6.30, playing quietly in her bedroom when awake.
She asked for a bed at age 7, up to that time, she loved her room as it was. Drastic solution but it worked for us, and yes I had health visitors checking on us, and all agreeing that it was a practical, safe solution.
She is now a happy mother and wife, with 4 lovely GC who all sleep well at night!
OP, I'm sureally your DD and SiL will find a solution, maybe offer to settle the children while they take an hour or so to go for a drink or quick meal. My daughter and SiL do that and it's become a catchphrase that even the GC use. "Are you taking advantage and going out now Nanny's here?" 7yr old granddaughter asked 6 weeks ago. They laughed and yes, they "took advantage" and went for a quick meal and drink.

My daughter made a rod for her own back by her own admission with her youngest child. Even at age 10 she would not go to sleep without her mother with her in bed.
Witzend as you are called upon to babysit often when your DD goes away I do think you are entitled to have an opinion because you have to go through this when you are putting them to bed. Good luck to you all and I hope it can soon be sorted.

Oh do stop fighting trisher and witzend!!!! Scoring points off each other is so childish, and I bet you are old enough to know this.

Sounds as if a different approach is needed. I would tell them now they are getting older they can have their stories downstairs as a treat & then when they go to bed they can read themselves for 10 mins & then it is straight to sleep.
Make them feel grown up & they may take to it.

I recall Dr Tanya Byron doing a lot of work on this issue and she appeared (to me) to talk sense. Worth Googling?

Say you cannot baby sit until they have a more normal routine. Might give the parents a bit of 'spine' - I know it's horrible and the older the children get the worse it is. I blame today's health visitors - I'm told they just advise parents to go with it until the children grow out of it. Road to the selfish and entitled adult I think

There's an excellent charity that can help your DD. It's not always a case of being tougher, there are lot of strategies that can help.
www.thechildrenssleepcharity.org.uk/parents.php

Somewhere in my professional training was about 'Boundaries'. It is letting down children if parents do not set them and children know this. Have had a few days away and mealtimes spoiled by toy cars beng brought to and banged on the dining table, toddler wandering about and bashing on the drum kit whilst mother and grandmother looked on, remarking he was musical, no he wasn't just noisy and bored. Sorry ladies if limits are not applied to behaviour a three year old tyrant becomes a monster by 30.

I totally disagree with your comment Trisher but part of that is keeping your opinions to yourself .

There is nothing wrong with sharing an opinion , everyone is entitled to them. An opinion offered does not mean you have to act on it but it might help inform decisions you want to make.

I think Witzend has made her point well, when you see something not working , especially when the parents themselves recognise that, why would a loving grandmother NOT have an opinion?

I know my 2 daughters have very different parenting styles, the younger ones 2 little boys have an extremely lengthy bedtime routine which she knows I think is excessive. I can share that with her because its MY opinion. The solution for us is they do it their way in their house and I do it my way in mine. My little grandchildren totally accept 'Nana's house, Nana's rules' .

I very much dislike this whole air of fear around saying anything to adult children in case they don't like it .

Criticism is allowed, trisher, especially when it's used as a way of getting one's head round what one sees as a problem without interfering with the parents in question. Your posts on this thread are awful grumpy.

Trisher, they have said themselves, without a word from me, that they wish to goodness they could make bedtimes easier. If it weren't for the fact that they are often so tired, and have so little time to themselves, I wouldn't care two straws what they do.

It seems to me that you are deliberately choosing to mis-interpret my post.