Presumed Consent

oops A presumed consent system, not AN.

Janeainsworth is quite right about the Liverpool Pathway and, having known of someone dehydrated to death under that scheme, I - too - worry about unintended consequences. I can no longer support the charity which invented it for all the best reasons, but then failed to check how it was being administered - causing distress and anguish to patients and relatives.

However, this is fundamentally different.

A young relative of mine has had two kidney transplants which saved his life and allowed him to enjoy times with his children which he couldn't have when tied to a dialysis machine half of each week. Everyone around him - including me - would give to transplant after death. We all carry cards but an presumed consent system is bound to make more people have the "conversation" with relatives beforehand.

And heartfelt thanks to the two families who had the courage in a time of abject grief to take the decision to save the lives of strangers.

Grandtante - many people who need organs are children- many are parents of young children, who desperately want and need their mum or dad to live. Like the lovely lady my niece gave a kidney to, a few weeks before she got married to the love of her life she had found again- because there was no organ coming forward, and because that was the only way to give her a few years more to see her children grow up a few more years- with the love of their mum.

Your post took my breath away.

The best news I have heard for a while. If you feel strongly about donating then carry a card saying.

www.facebook.com/BBCLifestyleHealth/videos/455134491691342/?t=2

I was taken aback by that comment as well Maw life is very precious and few more years can make such a difference. My grandchildren would have loved a few years with their father who died when they were very young.

Maw, I am talking about a case where 'best fit' applies to both, in same measure. So, toss a coin- or use the above criteria?

My niece, a GP aged 55, gave one of her patients, a mother of young children, 1 of her kidneys 2 years ago. Not a perfect match - but with no organ available due to lack to donors- it was her only chance. So a healthy woman gave her kidney...surely an opt-out system is so much better.

To Jane10, I'd say that any parent, or any spouse, who has sat watching a loved one die day by day, because no organ is available- will be rejoicing (too late for them sadly) with this latest decision to go for opt-out.

I have been on the organ donor register since I was old enough to do so. I discussed this with my 3 children and they, too signed up as soon as they were 18 and agreed that I could donate their organs if they died before that. The eldest has since given blood 100 times

HurdyGurdy of course they are not. You are absolutely right.
People should not believe what they see on the likes of “Casualty”. It may make good television and provide a sense of drama but is far from reality.

It’s all very well being confident that medical staff would always do their best for critically ill and dying patients.
In ideal circumstances, they would.
Let’s not forget what happened with the Liverpool Care Pathway, when a protocol that was supposed to provide excellent palliative care was abused because hospitals had to reach imposed targets.
From Wikipedia:
The Liverpool Care Pathway for the Dying Patient (LCP) was a care pathway in the United Kingdom (excluding Wales) covering palliative care options for patients in the final days or hours of life. It was developed to help doctors and nurses provide quality end-of-life care. Now discredited, the LCP was widely abused as a 'tick box exercise', with patients being casually assessed as terminal, heavily sedated, and denied water so the diagnosis became self-fulfilling[citation needed]. Hospitals were also provided cash incentives to achieve targets for the number of patients placed on the LCP.

An interesting question Jura but fortunately at present suitablity and “best fit” are the criteria.

grandtante
I can't imagine being so desperate to live a few years more that I would consider receiving an organ.
That simply takes my breath away.
The young daughter of Scottish friends had a heart transplant 17 years ago while a student because a virus had enlarged her heart to a point where she was unlikely to live long without surgery. She is still fit and well.
DH would not have seen his 50th birthday without his liver transplant . As I said upthread it enabled him to see his three daughters marry their lovely men and to know and love his 4 grandchildren. Sadly he will never know his fifth, grandchild due in two weeks’ time.
“A few years more?” Really? You make it sound so selfish. Well if it was, I am not ashamed that I was selfish.

Let's imagine - 1 organ, 2 possible recipients, similar circumstances - medical team just can't decide as both cases have the same amount of conditions - one card-carrying donor, and one who has opted out of donation ...

would it be fair to say the one who is prepared to give, should be the one to receive?

I am registered as not wishing to be an organ donor, and I can't imagine being so desperate to live a few years more that I would consider receiving an organ. Obviously, if I ever should want to receiver an organ, I would be morally obliged to change my refusal to be a donor.

I don't like the thought of doctors being forced to decide which of two patients should receive an organ, which must at times occur.

To be honest, at my present age, I doubt any of my organs would be of much use to anyone. As far as I know, it is youngsters killed in motor-cycle accidents that provide most of the organs that can be transplanted.

I am really please the UK has finally moved to presumed consent- BRAVO.

I urge all families, even with relatively young children, to discuss the issues. My OH and my family and friends all know that in case I had an accident leaving me brain-dead, they must volunteer my organs and not keep me on a machine for a longer eriod than a few days.

I am pretty certain that in case of an accident, the A&E staff will not be the same staff who are caring for someone on an organ transplant list.

The A&E staff's priority would, I assume, be preservation of life, and they would do all in their power to save the patient. Only if it seemed that there was no chance, I would hope, would relatives be approached about using the patient's organs (in the absence of a donor card)

I think it's rather insulting to medical staff who work so hard to save lives, to insinuate that they wouldn't try as hard to preserve life, just so they could harvest organs

sillyoldfool, when my DD was training in the priesthood, she was working at UCL. Once a year they would bury the cadavers according to the rites of the deceased as far as they could, if the family wouldn’t take them. They were all treated with the utmost respect and care.

No doubt we will be able to carry NON Consent cards much as we now carry Consent cards ....

Tragic deaths will remain tragic ... and i wouldn't wish that trauma on anyone ....
but just suppose you could at the same time as the tragedy ... save someone else's life ... why would we not.. your body is DEAD and going to waste on way or another
That young boy on last nights news saying so straight forwardly ... i was expecting to die .... he was 7 ...
and his life was saved by the tragic death of a 9 year old girl ..
The families have now become friends ...

And I don't think FOR A MINUTE hospital staff would neglect you in any way just to harvest your organs ...

Organ donation is one thing and is laudable. Presumption of consent us something else.
I also know some altruistic donors. Kind people offering their organs to strangers.
I gather that eg in China people are being considered for their 'social capital' ie what they are worth as people. As we age our social value will reduce. In a scary future where is presumed consent with potentially live donors? A nightmare scenario but have we opened the door to it?

I watched a TV programme some time ago where a woman met the man who had received her sister's heart. He wanted to know all about the sister and at the end the woman put her head to his chest and could hear her sister's heart beating - it was one of the most touching things I have ever seen.

I have always said I would be happy to donate any organs but I can’t now due to my health condition☹️ But I really appreciate those who give blood, I needed blood transfusions last year to save my life following emergency surgery and I would not be here now if some kind people had not taken the time to donate.

for those who would rather keep their organs.....would you rather see parts that can save lives incinerated? What a waste !

Agree with PECS....if you would accept a transplant you have to be willing to give once you have no use for heart etc.

Personally I have always believed that I would not want any part of anybody else's body transplanted into mine but am more than happy for any bits of me to be put to good use.

I wholeheartedly agree with Pecs. However, the family will still be asked.
It’s just a body and will disappear in time, it should a great thing a family could do, knowing that their loved one has helped someone to live