Family home dilemma

If your DB has the means to buy you out then perhaps he has the means to pay your father for the house? Then it WOULD no longer be your DFs asset, and your DF could still live there AND use the money your DB paid him for the house to pay for in house care. Then when he eventually dies it really is your brothers house.

No, Dad hasn’t been paying us rent as we didn’t want him to
Its not about greed/the money.
Its about making the "gift" of the house legal
Either you pay him market value for the house. Or he gives it to you as a gift BUT in order to do so he has to either move out & give you use of the house or pay you market rent.

You cant just sign your house over to your kids to avoid care or inheritance fees then continue to treat it as your own. You can stay there as a tennant. But otherwise, no. The house is not currently yours&DBs for the purposes of your DFs assets assessments for funding and/or inheritance stuff & other fees etc

That would make excellent sense maryeliza and I also feel strongly that dementia should be considered an illness requiring nursing care, not just personal care. If I have cancer, my care on the NHS. is “free” . It is high time dementia was treated the same way instead of relying on the goodwill of (often elderly) carers within the family.
However to get back to OP’s dilemma, I very much get the impression that there has been an attempt to exploit a loophole, but alas, that loophole does not exist as OP and her brother are likely to find out.

Re la paying for care - this really is based on a very out of date model isn’t it? The line between social and health care has probably always been a bit fuzzy but is increasingly so. I believe some area are trying out joint health and care budgets so that neither ‘side’ has a vested financial interest in arguing it’s the other ‘side’s’ responsibility. This is surely the way forward isn’t it?

As far as I know he hasnt really "given" you & DB the house legally unless he paid you market value rent for all the time he continued to live there.

IMO he attempted to use a loophole that doesnt exist. You need legal advice. Do not "sell" your half to DB as it isnt really yours to sell

Good questions jalima the division of responsibility between the NHS and SS has always seemed daft to me and underlines the problem of “bed blocking” where SS are unable to offer residential care and the NHS need the bed.
However, as it stands that is what OP and the rest of us have to cope with.
Sadly fairness doesn’t come into it.

Same question really Jal the person with the large house and garden is entitled to free health care why is that fair then?
Yes, I did ask further up the thread why dementia patients are treated differently.
I am presuming that my relative had to pay the care home fees for her convalescence because she was sent to a home for dementia patients (although she does not have dementia).

In an idea world we would have the best of care from cradle to grave.
We all know that LAs are being starved of cash and these are the services they are cutting back on.
The other question is - why is it incumbent upon LAs to fund this care? Should it not come under the umbrella of the NHS?

There are many questions.

Maryeliza I don't think kitty is saying it is fair that we are paying for elderly care - what she is saying is that it is unfair that some of us pay and some who can well afford it do not!!

Yes sorry meant the houses we live in being free from CGT

The house you live in, your principal private residence, is not subject to CGT. Other properties you own are deemed investments, so are subject to CGT when sold.

Same question really Jal the person with the large house and garden is entitled to free health care why is that fair then? If we have a fair system of taxation, then those with more would pay more in. And I think there’s also an issue to be discussed about other forms of taxation such as wealth tax, land tax etc. Also why are houses free from CGT? There must be a fairer way than the current system which is anyway failing badly and in no way fit for purpose

kitty why do you thing it’s fair to have taxpayer funded medical care but not social care? I am genuinely puzzled by this as it’s not like choosing to spend your money on expensive holidays or cars. Residential care is ipso facto a necessity that people don’t have a choice about and so I see it as someone we should share out the cost of between us and hope we are lucky enough never to need it.

If someone has a very large house with land such as the OP's father, I do fail to see why other taxpayers should be expected to fund care for that person - unless it is medical or nursing care in which case that part should be covered.

A relative was in hospital after a nasty fall, had an operation and it was decided by the consultant that she was not fit to be sent home straight away so she was sent to a home (which happened to be a home for dementia patients). She was assured that as this was ongoing nursing care she would not have to fund this herself - but she got a very large bill from the Council for four weeks' stay which she paid.

Maryeliza is right about the inheritance tax
www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts

So is * Maw* about the Capital Gains Tax

Proper legal advice is certainly needed.

Thanks Maw. And, I echo your advice to consult a solicitor.

Annaram1, my mother went into a care home when her dementia meant that she could no longer live at home. When she died her assets had been depleted to £25,000 after having had a good family home and savings.

I fail to see why she should have been able to pass on any of her money to my brothers and I while expecting anyone who paid tax to pay for her to live in a nursing home.

I’m sure it’s 7 for IHT - but it’s on a sliding scale between 3-7 years so the nearer you get to the 7 years between giving away and death, the smaller the tax paid( if of course any has to be ). It goes from 40% if less than 3 years to only 8% between 6-7 years

Granny23 Sun 17-Feb-19 14:04:40

I was pondering this earlier and wondered why dementia is treated so differently to some other illnesses Granny23. You have made the point well.

^ I read an article once which said that, unlike HMRC, there is no limit to how far back councils can go to see if assets have been disposed of to avoid payment of car3e costs.^
humpty and of course, HMRC can go back to see if the family were trying to avoid IHT, if applicable. It is usually six but that is not the limit of time.

Reading through all the posts on this thread I'm afraid I don't have anything useful to add in the way of practical advice (I was "lucky" enough to have both my lovely mother and dad die without needing to go into care) however I would like to offer support and warmest feelings to all of those who have suffered in this way. Dementia is indeed a terrible thing, as Annaram1 says, and I do hope the OP's father can stay in his home, with the support of carers coming in to help him, for as long as possible. The suggestion of renting out the house, should the necessity of a care home arise, is also a good one.
Meanwhile unhelpful and hurtful posts should not be appearing here ... Good luck Plumcushion!

Well if you can understand my last post I’m well impressed - it seemed clear when I wrote it

Cold good post. Also some card homes because what the la will pay is so low actually use a form of cross- subsidy from the self funding residents - this isn’t formally acknowledged but it is accepted it happens. So not only are self funders paying for themselves but subsidising the la funded residents - or rather subsiding tax and council tax payers some of whom will be much better off than they ( the self pay residents) are.

OK, Kittylester, Anja and other hardhearted souls, I think you may have to wait until somebody you love has to go into care and the boot will be on the other foot

Good heavens Annaram how on Earth can you assume that kittylester and anja are in any way hard hearted or have not been in that position?
I do not presume to know anybody’s personal details in RL but I do know that kittylester has considerable experience with Alzheimer’s and other firms of dementia, training carers and advising on the legal and financial implications.
OP asked for advice and they among others have given it. The “deprivation of assets” ruling is extremely relevant and if it comes to being assessed for residential care, *plum cushion*’s father (or her brother and herself) may well find that they will be paying for his care.
If we could all sign our houses over to our children to avoid care home fees this would be a loophole which everybody would take advantage of.
You yourself would be liable for CGT if your brother bought your share as it is presumably not your principal home.
By all means ask for opinions but the bottom line is that you need to be in possessioof the facts.
Do consult a solicitor.

Look up the case of Pamela Coughlan and see the video and the advice from the Law Society.

You will also have to consider that if you do not self-fund you will probably have much less choice and your father may not be able to get a place in the care home you prefer. Local Authority funding is often less than the cost of many care home - especially if you have set your heart on a particular, nice care home.

Funding was one of the questions asked by the care home we chose assessed my mother. In 2015 the care home charged £950 per week but the maximum local authority funding was only £630 - so they only accepted self funders.

Granny23, there are a lot of people on this thread who may think it even worse if the cash-strapped NHS pays for peoples care, than if the State pays. Frankly even if you have dementia which my husband had and are quite badly affected so that you cannot be left alone because you will set the house on fire, injure yourself, try to kill somebody etc. you should still not have to pay for your final care, after subsidising a lot of freeloaders and crooks all your life through your taxes. Dementia is a terrible thing and it cost me many tears while I looked after my husband. It is not just misplacing your keys. My husband shouted at me in public places, including in a restaurant, and accused me of trying to poison him. He swore at me, which was completely alien to him. He tried to get out of the house at midnight, saying he wanted to go home. He attempted to strangle me. He could not recognise me nor his own children. Dementia is almost the worse thing you can get. The poor man was blind too. He refused to eat while in care and lost a huge amount of weight.
So don't think dementia is less important than any other illness. It would be a good thing if you could all remember that.