Family home dilemma

Maryeliza I don't think kitty is saying it is fair that we are paying for elderly care - what she is saying is that it is unfair that some of us pay and some who can well afford it do not!!

Same question really Jal the person with the large house and garden is entitled to free health care why is that fair then?
Yes, I did ask further up the thread why dementia patients are treated differently.
I am presuming that my relative had to pay the care home fees for her convalescence because she was sent to a home for dementia patients (although she does not have dementia).

In an idea world we would have the best of care from cradle to grave.
We all know that LAs are being starved of cash and these are the services they are cutting back on.
The other question is - why is it incumbent upon LAs to fund this care? Should it not come under the umbrella of the NHS?

There are many questions.

Good questions jalima the division of responsibility between the NHS and SS has always seemed daft to me and underlines the problem of “bed blocking” where SS are unable to offer residential care and the NHS need the bed.
However, as it stands that is what OP and the rest of us have to cope with.
Sadly fairness doesn’t come into it.

As far as I know he hasnt really "given" you & DB the house legally unless he paid you market value rent for all the time he continued to live there.

IMO he attempted to use a loophole that doesnt exist. You need legal advice. Do not "sell" your half to DB as it isnt really yours to sell

Re la paying for care - this really is based on a very out of date model isn’t it? The line between social and health care has probably always been a bit fuzzy but is increasingly so. I believe some area are trying out joint health and care budgets so that neither ‘side’ has a vested financial interest in arguing it’s the other ‘side’s’ responsibility. This is surely the way forward isn’t it?

That would make excellent sense maryeliza and I also feel strongly that dementia should be considered an illness requiring nursing care, not just personal care. If I have cancer, my care on the NHS. is “free” . It is high time dementia was treated the same way instead of relying on the goodwill of (often elderly) carers within the family.
However to get back to OP’s dilemma, I very much get the impression that there has been an attempt to exploit a loophole, but alas, that loophole does not exist as OP and her brother are likely to find out.

No, Dad hasn’t been paying us rent as we didn’t want him to
Its not about greed/the money.
Its about making the "gift" of the house legal
Either you pay him market value for the house. Or he gives it to you as a gift BUT in order to do so he has to either move out & give you use of the house or pay you market rent.

You cant just sign your house over to your kids to avoid care or inheritance fees then continue to treat it as your own. You can stay there as a tennant. But otherwise, no. The house is not currently yours&DBs for the purposes of your DFs assets assessments for funding and/or inheritance stuff & other fees etc

If your DB has the means to buy you out then perhaps he has the means to pay your father for the house? Then it WOULD no longer be your DFs asset, and your DF could still live there AND use the money your DB paid him for the house to pay for in house care. Then when he eventually dies it really is your brothers house.

You do need legal advice - the position may have changed but when my Mother needed care we didn’t have to use the house as my Divorced Sister who was over 60 had moved in to provide care and that was then her main home. So when Mums savings had gone the state would have picked up the bill without the house being her asset- that didn’t happen as she died before her savings had gone. Maybe therefore if your DB moves in and makes that his main residence it would be protected when your father needed more care? I’ve no doubt changes have occurred though, and your solicitor will be able to advise - Good Luck it’s all a worry!

If youre willing to self fund his care & pay capital gains tax & IHT (if it falls in the ?7yr window) then the lack of rent payment is not an issue.

Or Df could pay you rent and you could use that to pay his care. Or
You or db or both buy his house and he uses the money to pay for care.

You have several options going forward. But not the one it seemed you all hoped for.

P.s. what you are trying to do os not for your dads benefit. While he remains at home he wont be forced to sell to pay for care. He would only need to sell if he needed to LEAVE his home for residential/nursing care.

I have no advice for the original poster other than to seek out a good solicitor and/or accountant for advice.
I would like to join the debate re payment for care of people with dementia. We, as a society, accept that the care of murderers, rapists and thugs in our gaols are tax payer funded. We accept that long term care of those with often self-inflicted illnesses related to obesity, smoking, narcotics, alcohol, etc., is funded by the tax payer. We rightly accept that those with other long term illnesses such as multiple schlerosis, parkinsons, cancer, etc., have their care funded by tax payers. Disabled people, often requiring tax payer funded care from cradle to grave are rightly looked after without complaint from us. So why on earth do we expect people who, through no fault of their own, become victims of dementia, to fund their own care if they have lived frugal lives, paid their mortgage and saved their money.

I would also add that, as dementia is most often a disease of the elderly, these are the very people who have paid the taxes that fund everyone else.

We must fight for a fairer system, dementia is an illness.

This thread has of course focussed on residential care but the other part of the jigsaw is domicillary social care which enables people to stay in their own homes if that’s possible. My dm died 18 years ago and was fortunate to have a very generous social care package which was free. She was able to stay at home and lead a good life just about up to the end. Today she would have nothing like that level of support.

I dont think its helpful to the Op to derail this thread by discussing how it should be, because the OP is dealing with this in the present system and right now the loophole she tried to exploit does not exist. Whether it SHOULD exist or not is not helpful to someone facing the situation NOW. She has to manoeuvre the current system

notanan that’s a tad unfair - doesn’t happen on other threads - mist threads meander so why not this one. There is a moral dimension to the issue of potentially avoiding care fees that it’s perfectly proper to debate if people want to. It’s because the current system is broke that this is even an issue

May I just say that having worked as a professional nurse in a great many care homes, I would avoid this option at all costs.
Unless you can afford the very best care home (rare) it’s much better and usually feasible, to maintain an elderly person at home with the help of carers.
This will usually work out less expensive, too, so is well worth looking into
Unless you loathe your elderly relative, please try to keep them in their own home unless it becomes impossible!

Hi
You can’t get DLa if person is past retirement age. The benefit to claim is Attendance Allowance. Their is no reason your Dad can’t stay at home for many years with carers coming in

The gift of the house is a legal transaction. The deeds are in the AC’s names. The value of the house at the time of the gift (I assume a valuation was done) will fall into IHT if the father dies within 7 years of making the gift. If the house is sold, the ACs will pay CGT on the difference between the sale price and the gift price. This is the legal position re HMRC and tax.
As to care home fees or the payments for care in the home, social services may treat the gift of the house differently.
As I said above the services of a good solicitor are needed.

I apologise to kittylester and Anja if I misunderstood them or upset them in any way. This thread has upset me and reminded me of the unfairness of life,

The value of the house at the time of the gift (I assume a valuation was done) will fall into IHT if the father dies within 7 years of making the gift.
But is that only if the property is of sufficient value?

It could be a large house on a large plot but in an area where house prices are low.

A number of posters seem to think the current rules only apply to people with dementia. It doesn't. It applies to anyone going into a care home for any reason including physical disability and other mental disabilities. Currently the majority of people in care do have mental disabilities, usually dementia of some sort.

I was a regular visitor to family/friends in a variety of care homes from 1976 to 2006. Only half the people I was visiting had dementia. The others had physical disabilities and other mental problems, including severe depression if living alone at home. While visiting I got to know other people in these homes and, again by no means all, or even a majority had dementia.

The dividing line is how much continuing medical care you need.

I am not defending the current situation, merely making it clear it is not just people with dementia who are affected.

This advice is from 2017, you would need to check that the same rules still apply, but it is helpful:
www.saga.co.uk/magazine/money/personal-finance/giving/what-you-need-to-know-about-signing-property-over-to-your-children

Jalima that is a very helpful document. Thank you.

Do what you’re saying is that people who worked hard all their lives and paid loads of tax souls have to sell there home to pay for their care, but people who lived off the state sponging can get it for free. There really is something wrong with the way you think.

I must email it to myself Alygran, for future reference!