Family home dilemma

Menopauselbitch -Do what you’re saying is that people who worked hard all their lives and paid loads of tax souls have to sell there home to pay for their care, but people who lived off the state sponging can get it for free. There really is something wrong with the way you think.

If you work hard and have money you will have choice. The local authority usually pays only around half to two-thirds of what the highest rated care homes charge. Many will not accept applications from those dependent on Local Authority funding.

For example this article from the Telegraph just over a year ago (Dec 2017) found that in Oxfordshire the average care home cost was £955 per week but that the maximum funding offered by Oxfordshire County Council was £493 - so about half. www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/care-cost-lottery-councils-will-pay-push/
Therefore residents who are dependent on Local Authority care funding will often find themselves priced out of the most attractive care options and will be faced with 3 options 1) accept a place at a cheap care home that may have poor staffing or fewer activities etc, 2) move away to an area where care is cheap, 3) have family/friends make top up payments.

Having seen my daughter go through the system of paying for care I don't want ALL our assets to found our care. We don't have a large amount an it would only last a couple of years. In the meantime my son who bent over backwards to help his sister, more so than SS, would be left with no inheritance and I don't intend this to happen. It is your choice Monica that you have never contemplated disposing of your assets but there are many of us with difference views just as valid.

People always bring this tale of the feckless and wastrels getting their care for free. But actually, just how many of those qualifying for free care fall in that category?

All the people I know, who have qualified for free care are people who have worked hard throughout their lives as labourers, carers or in other poorly paid jobs which did not enable them to either buy a home or save more than enough to pay for their funeral, if that.

Personally, I am so thankful that we have enough equity in our house to pay for any care we may need. I have been in enough care homes and visited friends in care and dependent on SS to pay for their care to know that, anything is better than that.

We have never ever contemplated disposing of our assets to avoid paying for care

What are you on about mumofmadboys?

Life is not fair and never has been. Some are born into loving families, some are not. Some are born with a lot of intelligence and ability to earn a lot and others are not. We cannot make it a fair world but we can try.

We have just taken steps and advice to try and pay less care home fees should it happen. It is legal to sign away your home but the council will do their best to get their hands on it. Your dad is in the early stages and it could be some years until care fees are needed, so if you can last until the 7 years have passed you should be ok. See no reason why your brother can't go ahead with his plans but you need to check it with a solicitor. We have changed our house from joint names to tenants in common so that each owns a share and therefore only half the value of the house will be taken into consideration should one of us go into care. Also should one of us dies then their share will go to our son and their is no 7 year rule on doing this.

I suspect you will need to take legal advice.

I also suspect that you can't gift houses to offspring just like that and then not pay for care but I could be wrong.

If the worse case scenario occurs maybe it would be better to rent it out and use the monies for his care rather than lose the house. I really hope it goes well for you as this infuriates me. People who live on benefits or rented and squandered their money get looked after for free, whilst others who worked hard paid taxes through the nose get ripped off again.

I must email it to myself Alygran, for future reference!

Do what you’re saying is that people who worked hard all their lives and paid loads of tax souls have to sell there home to pay for their care, but people who lived off the state sponging can get it for free. There really is something wrong with the way you think.

Jalima that is a very helpful document. Thank you.

This advice is from 2017, you would need to check that the same rules still apply, but it is helpful:
www.saga.co.uk/magazine/money/personal-finance/giving/what-you-need-to-know-about-signing-property-over-to-your-children

A number of posters seem to think the current rules only apply to people with dementia. It doesn't. It applies to anyone going into a care home for any reason including physical disability and other mental disabilities. Currently the majority of people in care do have mental disabilities, usually dementia of some sort.

I was a regular visitor to family/friends in a variety of care homes from 1976 to 2006. Only half the people I was visiting had dementia. The others had physical disabilities and other mental problems, including severe depression if living alone at home. While visiting I got to know other people in these homes and, again by no means all, or even a majority had dementia.

The dividing line is how much continuing medical care you need.

I am not defending the current situation, merely making it clear it is not just people with dementia who are affected.

The value of the house at the time of the gift (I assume a valuation was done) will fall into IHT if the father dies within 7 years of making the gift.
But is that only if the property is of sufficient value?

It could be a large house on a large plot but in an area where house prices are low.

I apologise to kittylester and Anja if I misunderstood them or upset them in any way. This thread has upset me and reminded me of the unfairness of life,

The gift of the house is a legal transaction. The deeds are in the AC’s names. The value of the house at the time of the gift (I assume a valuation was done) will fall into IHT if the father dies within 7 years of making the gift. If the house is sold, the ACs will pay CGT on the difference between the sale price and the gift price. This is the legal position re HMRC and tax.
As to care home fees or the payments for care in the home, social services may treat the gift of the house differently.
As I said above the services of a good solicitor are needed.

Hi
You can’t get DLa if person is past retirement age. The benefit to claim is Attendance Allowance. Their is no reason your Dad can’t stay at home for many years with carers coming in

May I just say that having worked as a professional nurse in a great many care homes, I would avoid this option at all costs.
Unless you can afford the very best care home (rare) it’s much better and usually feasible, to maintain an elderly person at home with the help of carers.
This will usually work out less expensive, too, so is well worth looking into
Unless you loathe your elderly relative, please try to keep them in their own home unless it becomes impossible!

notanan that’s a tad unfair - doesn’t happen on other threads - mist threads meander so why not this one. There is a moral dimension to the issue of potentially avoiding care fees that it’s perfectly proper to debate if people want to. It’s because the current system is broke that this is even an issue

I dont think its helpful to the Op to derail this thread by discussing how it should be, because the OP is dealing with this in the present system and right now the loophole she tried to exploit does not exist. Whether it SHOULD exist or not is not helpful to someone facing the situation NOW. She has to manoeuvre the current system

This thread has of course focussed on residential care but the other part of the jigsaw is domicillary social care which enables people to stay in their own homes if that’s possible. My dm died 18 years ago and was fortunate to have a very generous social care package which was free. She was able to stay at home and lead a good life just about up to the end. Today she would have nothing like that level of support.

I have no advice for the original poster other than to seek out a good solicitor and/or accountant for advice.
I would like to join the debate re payment for care of people with dementia. We, as a society, accept that the care of murderers, rapists and thugs in our gaols are tax payer funded. We accept that long term care of those with often self-inflicted illnesses related to obesity, smoking, narcotics, alcohol, etc., is funded by the tax payer. We rightly accept that those with other long term illnesses such as multiple schlerosis, parkinsons, cancer, etc., have their care funded by tax payers. Disabled people, often requiring tax payer funded care from cradle to grave are rightly looked after without complaint from us. So why on earth do we expect people who, through no fault of their own, become victims of dementia, to fund their own care if they have lived frugal lives, paid their mortgage and saved their money.

I would also add that, as dementia is most often a disease of the elderly, these are the very people who have paid the taxes that fund everyone else.

We must fight for a fairer system, dementia is an illness.

P.s. what you are trying to do os not for your dads benefit. While he remains at home he wont be forced to sell to pay for care. He would only need to sell if he needed to LEAVE his home for residential/nursing care.

If youre willing to self fund his care & pay capital gains tax & IHT (if it falls in the ?7yr window) then the lack of rent payment is not an issue.

Or Df could pay you rent and you could use that to pay his care. Or
You or db or both buy his house and he uses the money to pay for care.

You have several options going forward. But not the one it seemed you all hoped for.

You do need legal advice - the position may have changed but when my Mother needed care we didn’t have to use the house as my Divorced Sister who was over 60 had moved in to provide care and that was then her main home. So when Mums savings had gone the state would have picked up the bill without the house being her asset- that didn’t happen as she died before her savings had gone. Maybe therefore if your DB moves in and makes that his main residence it would be protected when your father needed more care? I’ve no doubt changes have occurred though, and your solicitor will be able to advise - Good Luck it’s all a worry!