Short lived relationships & resulting babies

I have this situation, and did not seem my granddaughter for years. Happily, she is back in our lives now - a busy 8 year old

I was reading a thread on Mumsnet about how teens used to spend their time before 'screens'. Lots of replies most referred to boys. I gave my version too, we were much more 'prim ' in those days, fear of the 'disgrace' of pregnancy.
I was a teen in the '50s and it struck me that women and girls had no control over pregnancy then, except for just saying no. I think men and boys had the 'sheath' as an option, I think that had been available for some time.
Then in the 60s for females came the 'cap' and the pill. But young girls still had to get parental consent at first.
I agree there does seem to be a swing back from sexual freedom.
Maybe also because of the spread of STDs and AIDS.

I do agree that women and men both should do everything possible to avoid unwanted pregnancies - I abhor the use of abortion as a method of contraception (and I know more than one woman who has had multiple abortions). However, even with careful contraception on both sides, pregnancies do occasionally occur and I would never blame a women for having an abortion in these circumstances or, for that matter, choosing to raise the child alone. I'm sure most of us agree that a child is best brought up within a committed relationship with two parents, unfortunately this is the real world and its not always possible.

I quite agree. Along with the joy of sex is the responsibility of contraception. Some people want the pleasure but don't seem able to be grown up enough to take precautions.
Sadly we're probably preaching to the converted - those who need to heed the advice aren't listening.
Remember 'The L-shaped Room'? The doctor in the book asked the main character, 'Wasn't contraception romantic enough for you?' or words to that effect. A bit cruel but it could be termed 'hard talking'.

You do seem to shift position Cocoayan. I am not just concerned about fathers. I am concerned about the whole family. And families can consist of many things and include many people. I was simply pointing out that it is impossible to generalise about situations and wrong to always blame the man. I think your views have been vastly influenced by your own situation which must have been awful for you. But not all men are violent and some just want to be good dads.

coyocan that is a very outdated view of suicide and very blinkered. If you had ever known anyone driven to it you would feel differently. It is not a selfish act, it is the end result of someone being pushed beyond their capability. I am shocked that anyone could still make such a comment.

I have a friend who 'had to get married' and is still happily married after 53 years.

I feel rather sorry for these young women who don't seem to be aware of the consequences or who become pregnant because they fancy the idea of a baby and may get a flat as a result. They lose out on the support and company of a partner which I have enjoyed since I was 21. The freedom to have everything so easily is in some ways a trap.

It's property that led to the one man one woman tradition in our culture.
I don't agree that it doesn't work either. Some marriages or life partnerships work very well and provide a great place for children and adults to thrive in.

I would certainly not advocate judgement about family make up but certainly we need to be sure that a key component of family life includes, as paramount, the physical & emotional well being of children. This would need parent/s to be emotionally secure too. Children are not our possessions to be used as: bargaining tools, to hurt others, accessories etc.

There are many different models of family behaviour. In Mosuo culture the women are free to have children with as many men as they choose and they don't live with any of them. It's called 'a walking marriage' - it's not promiscuous, it's normal.

Western culture has had a one man-one woman society as a result of religion and we can all see it just doesn't work for so many of us.

Now, as society changes, women have much more freedom and in my opinion that can only be a good thing.

It's terribly sad for all concerned and devastating if it involves suicide, when a family splits up - but until we learn to accept that humans need more than one model of normal, and stop judging and even punishing people for not conforming, there'll always be casualties.

Until 2008 single mothers who were receiving benefits had to make a claim for maintenance, through the Child Support Agency, or have their benefit reduced. There was an exception if the father had been violent . If there was a doubt about paternity a reduced price DNA test could be offered.
There was a public outcry about the situation and after 5 years the law was changed and the mothers could choose whether to claim maintenance. They could also keep the money in addition to their benefit. Many of the mothers who had said the parents were violent suddenly had a change of heart! Both parents should support a child and being forced to make a financial contribution 'may' lead to a relationship being established which could be the best scenario for the child.
I grew up not knowing my biological father. I loved my mum dearly and I understand why she married another man to be 'respectable' but I do resent not having the chance to build a relationship with my father

callgirl, I know some 'shotgun' marriages worked - I just wonder how many do? There is no reason why they wouldn't really as all marriage is a gamble.

nahsma legs55 yes I am aware that the father has to be at the registration. It was (in my own experience) shortly after that, he was 'dumped' and used as a cash cow/babysitter to allow her to live her own life! Maybe our family and acquaintances have just been unlucky in their choices. I am a single parent who was just left to get on with it, with no financial or other help so I have now seen both sides. I still maintain it is the children who suffer and that breaks my heart.

Kitty, we "had" to get married in 1963, we had 5 children, none of them planned, but all of them loved, and when my husband died, in 2016, we`d been married for just over 53 years, so some of these "forced" marriages do stay the course.

Actually trisher it is the wellbeing of children that concerns me whereas you seem to be exclusively worried about the wellbeing of fathers.

FYI, I was a single mother and the father of my child had been violent when we were together. I never stood in the way of their relationship. By the way you'll be happy to know he never paid any child maintenance.

A friend of mine wasn't so lucky. Her ex was violent but she still wanted her dd to have a relationship with her father. She forgave him over and over again until the day that he attacked in front of the child and told the child it was her fault. Another one who never paid child maintenance, but that was the least of her worries.

Coyoacan those who die as a result of suicide are ill and extremely distressed; very ill and despite the best efforts of loving family members can still succeed in ending their life. It is hard to be a child , parent, friend, relative or lover of someone who died as a result of mental illness.

Coyoacan Ah now it's the suicide that upsets you, and not some imagined violence. If someone is driven to take their own life by the actions of others is it entirely their own fault? or should the tormentor take some blame?
I don't actually think such actions are taken with any degree of objectivity.

Saetana and Gabriella I make no judgements about casual sex but I just feel no action is without consequence and if a potential consequence is a new life then society needs to be clear about its expectations of what 'should' happen if this occurs.

Of course there are females who want a baby regardless of the males' wishes and who may deliberately become pregnant and there are males & females who want to have responsibility free sex.
Society needs to start making it clear that the needs and well being of potential babies / existing children are paramount and that the law would make it happens.

Yes, you are right, trisher, I have very little sympathy for a parent who commits suicide. Anyone who truly loved their children would not leave that as an inheritance to them.

There was an article in a paper a few days ago about a woman who was brought up by her father and as it was a happy childhood, decided to have and bring up two children on her own.
I will happily admit to being very old fashioned and say that it takes two to create a child and the other side of the coin is that the best environment for a child is to grow up with two parents, a man and a woman, so that he/she has a role model of both, and in normal circumstances, these should be the biological parents - you only have to watch some of the tv programs where people search for their parents to see how much it means to them to find outwhere they came from and meet their blood relations. What right has someone to cut one half out of the picture? It means that they should get to know the other person really well before becoming intimate - a girl may wash her hands after going to the toilet but let parts of a casual stranger physically enter an intimate part of her body just because they get a short term high from it?
Why do we treat the creation of a new human being so carelessly? I think both parties having sex need to understand that the purpose of the act in the natural world, is to create a life and bring it up to be self sufficient and where appropriate auseful member of the pack or herd. . If people do not want to take on this responsibility, they must either abstain or take the necessary precautions to prevent conception. There is absolutely no excuse for mistakes (outside of rape and a few other rare circumstances), it is just pure selfishness, an emphasis on the so called right to do whatever you want, to satisfy every craving, and ‘have fun’. This attitude undermines the concept of family and society which has stood the test of time for thousands of years.

I live in the real world Coyoacan where all women are not angels and all men are not baddies, where some women use their children as weapons and cash providers, and some men suffer because they are denied their parental rights, where some men leave and abandon children, and some men abuse women, and some women throw men out because they want to live an independent life. But to imagine that it is always the man's fault is to live in cloud cuckoo land, and is one of the reasons men have so many problems being fathers.
And what the women do is ignore, or comply with a court order in such a way that it is incredibly difficult for the father to see his children. To challenge their behaviour incurs legal costs that the father can't usually afford.
And there are cases where men have had breakdowns or committed suicide because they have been under so much pressure and simply haven't been able to cope. To denigrate such men does no one any good and to imply that there is more to the story than a very unhappy man, stretched financially, and unable to care for his children as he would want to is completely disgusting and sexist.

The above comment was to Saetana

We'll agree to disagree. I have my morals and you have yours.

So if a woman lies and says she is on the pill or declares she has a medical condition that means she can not have children

What kind of world do you live in, trisher? I don't say it doesn't happen, but I doubt there are many cases of this type of behaviour.

I would add that there are women who don't want the father around but still expect him to pay maintenance

There a lot of very good reasons for not wanting the father around, such as domestic violence for a start. However the courts do not allow fathers to be excluded from their children's lives except in the most extreme circumstances.

Shame the policeman didn't explain that to his brother or tell you the full story.

nonnie that is why we need a bigger societal attitude change to accept that , whilst it is perfectlt possible for one person to raise a,child successfully, it should be expected that both those involved in creating the life should play an active role in parenting.

Good point about your daughter growing up when she had her baby, knickas63. It does require a certain level of maturity for the full- time responsibility of raising a child and very young parents must find it daunting. Watching 'One Born Every Minute', some time ago, I was struck by how immature some of the new parents were, especially, sorry to say, the men.