Schools banning skirts.

If I saw some of the behaviours you claim are frequent, I'd be wondering about any number of very negative experiences those girls had experienced that would lead to that behaviour

Well, it is for certain that some staff have voiced the view that they wonder what goes on in some children's homes.
That would be a safeguarding issue and I am sure that if there is anything of concern our safeguarding office has been informed.

As I said, it is not all the girls but there are a number ( and there always are a number in most schools.

Personally, if I have to place "blame" anywhere, I put it at the feet of social media and society in general.

It is interesting as well that abbey is still prepared to blame the sexualisation on the girls and absolve the boys of all responsibility

Lets not do the opposite and blame all the boys either. That is equally unfair and not accurate.

I am not blaming anyone. I am just stating things as I observe them. There are some girls ( not all) who do seem to need to validate themselves in sexually explicit behaviours.

To Iam64 - to know that something is inevitable is not to enjoy it, or even not to enjoy it. It simply is.

To state an observation is not to know more or to believe that one is more right than another. It just is what it is.

Retired teachers are out of touch I am afraid. Parents and grandparents often do not see the side of children that I do.

Its not that your lovely grandchildren are not lovely at home, its that they are not necessarily so lovely when in a group with their friends and fitting in with that. Its an observation.

It is interesting as well that abbey is still prepared to blame the sexualisation on the girls and absolve the boys of all responsibility. What she is in effect saying is it is OK for boys to blame their responses on the girls, much the same excuse used by many rapists in the past.
As for the girls who are sexualised perhaps a little more sympathy, suggestions of other ways they could challenge their rebellion and a recognition that bad behaviour is possible for both boys and girls, and isn't worse in girls would help. Trying to find your place in a society where women are openly lauded for their sexual style of dress is very difficult and the girls who get things wrong need to be understood not simply condemned.
As for not encountering any trans people, I suppose you see what you want to see. I certainly remember a number of children who, as teenagers, experimented with dress and style that was very androgynous, some of them might have been trans.

I get it now abbey. You know so much more than any of us and your views are right. This is the case whether we are teachers, retired teachers (or any other group who works/ed with large groups of children for years), grandparents, parents or in fact, just people living in the world.

Of course, you wanted to 'put the cat amongst the pigeons'. You've clearly enjoyed the responses. That won't stop me taking a very different view of adolescents. I am confident if many of us spent a few days in the school you (say) you work at, our views of the young people wouldn't mirror yours. If I saw some of the behaviours you claim are frequent, I'd be wondering about any number of very negative experiences those girls had experienced that would lead to that behaviour.

As for summer dresses, my G*d, how out of date are you? I havent seen a school with a summer dress on the uniform since my own school days . Its one uniform across the school, boys and girls with the variation of a skirt for girls and that is it.

Primary children have the option of a summer dress. Secondary ones not so in most cases.

Of course that would not change the behaviour. Only society can do that. An anything goes society breeds anything goes kids. They reflect it.

Where on earth do you live, Abbey that seems to be awash with sexualised schoolgirls

The place is not awash with them, but there are some, and it needs to be recognised. There are some girls who will display very sexualised behaviour, will break rules, will be uncouth regardless. Call it rebellion, attention seeking, sex on a stick, whatever, these pupils are discruptive and really need dealing with, not pandering to by changing uniforms to suit.

Its not so much a case of being comfortable either. oft times the way they wear their clothes must be very uncomfortable. One thing is certain, it is uncomfortable for the rest of us - teachers and other pupils who have to witness it/ deal with it.

More than that you need to recognise that most schools these days are co educational and nearly all go up to the leaving age of 18.

One thing that has come up in the school where I work is a petition to the head about the younger girls ( year 9 and 10 - 14/15 year olds) and their behaviour/ the way they wear their uniform. The older boys ( who are becoming young men!) find them embarassing and feel do not want to be in class with these girls because they fear , not their own behaviour but the potential for accusations.

We have a duty to keep all our children safe, not just the ones who are playing the minority/feminism / me too cards.

My school has fairly biddable pupils, nice boys and girls generally , but we still have a few who want to hitch skirts to their backsides, spread eagle their legs in class ( because , well the boys can do it cant they? ) Well no actually most of the boys dont do it, and besides they have a different anatomy to the girls ).

I do wish we would stop all this gender is in the mind stuff and its what you want ot identify as..... its so easily used by those who just want to cause disruption . There are physical differences. Lets be honest about that.

The other thing that needs to be recognised here is , that despite the media , the reporting, the bans on skirts/rousers/ whatever in some schools , the response is to a problem wich is really minority - around a third of the pupils insist on making this fuss and sometimes their parents too! Many of them could be stopped easily if the real hard core of offenders is dealt with quickly and harshly - so the rules are enforced and they all know it and see it. The rest tend to conform in the classroom and are generally nice kids. This is no different to the work place. You turn up to work in the wrong clothes and you will be given your cards.

If you would stop making big on this and let schools impose the rules ( as employers do in a work place - I used to work in a professional setting, we had a dress code or we had a "uniform" ( overall or firms corporate image) and if we didnt stick to it, we got sacked!

Well, I suppose I knew that I would end up putting the cat amongst the pigeons.

Where do I see these girls? In classrooms. I see the girls when they are not being your children or your grandchildren - they are being teenagers, hitching up their skirts after leaving home. I get the "lip" because I am a teacher and not a parent or a grandparent. I am just telling it as it is.

When the school phones home, the first thing a parent or gardian usually says is " They are not like that at home" or " When they left this morning the skirt was the right length".

You have no idea what they do or say when out of your ear shot.

As for appropriate, they do not really understand that. The know what they see. They know what they want to emulate - and it isnt you or their parents.

Back in the 1990's trousers for girls replaced skirts generally and still the girls wore them very tight, very low ( showing a thong). Now its short skirts - short and tight. The other one is blouses with buttons undone.

Where I work boys are allowed to wear shorts as it happens. A couple have, most lads stick to long trousers. Funnily, dress has never been such an issue with the boys . OK you constantly tell them to tuck in their shirts ( but I notice that modern shirts, with no tails drop out of trousers easily ( even my husbands shirt falls out ). But that is beside the point.

If you have uniform or no uniform, the issues will remain. These are young people whose hormones have kicked in and because social mores are less strong but social pressures ( in social media ) are much stronger they behave in this way. Often, when the pupils get a mufti day ( no uniform) or a day out and are in casual wear, you see more than a share of cleavage, bottom cheeks and midrifs unless you clearly stipulate it will not be allowed and those arriving so dressed will be excluded from the events/trip etc.

I see trans issues as a deflection because it is being used to carry the uniform agenda change forward - but it wont change things and interestingly, in 25 years of teaching and being at the chalk face in both top class state schools, top private schools and tough teach comprehensives, I have only come across two trans pupils. One in the 1990's ( and she had a victim of abuse as it happens) and the other about 10 years ago. Despite the hype, they are a small number.

BaggsI can agree with you to a point about appropriate clothing for particular situations: bathing suit for beach / pool, shorts & tee for sports etc. because they are comfortable and practical for an activity. Short / long/ medium length skirt/ dress does not impact on a person's ability to sit in a classroom and learn. We do need to be comfortable to focus and concentrate. To me thst should be the guide for school wear: is my clothing preventing me from learning?

I think uniforms should move with the times so girls should have the option of skirts or trousers and boys should have the option of Trousers or Cargo shorts for summer. If schools hadn't been stuck in the past with their dress code then boys wouldn't have started wearing skirts in protest due to the heat.
I can't see the problem as long as they are clean and tidy and turn up prepared to learn.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be nice if what people wore or, equally, what they didn't wear were always irrelevant.

Trying to imagine reactions on GN if, say, government ministers went around in hyper mini skirts or shorts. Would it be irrelevant then?

I don't think it is, gravy, but then I think there is a difference between formal or work wear and casual clothes. Very short skirts or shorts are not suitable wear for any occasion in 2018 therefore what I've been saying isn't irrelevant.

I accept that you disagree with what I'm saying. That doesn't make it irrelevant either.

Where on earth do you live, Abbey that seems to be awash with sexualised schoolgirls? I have four adult children and now have grandchildren, as well as numerous nieces and nephews and friends' children, and I can say with hand on heart that I have never seen such behaviour.

Baggs sorry but please stop the whole 'girls are wearing short/tight clothing thing. Wearing a short skirt or tight trousers for either sex is irrelevant in 2018!!

Does anyone know of a school where boys are allowed to wear shorts as short and as tight as the skirts some girls wear?

abbey where did you get this information? I have sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters, I do not recognise your observations.

Times change, media input changes. A girl or boy should be able to wear what they feel comfortable in.

Schools should have 'uniform lists' to,choose from regardless of gender.

It is adults who sexualise short skirts, crop tops and tight trousers, children just wear them.

I have a grandchild whose best friend changed 'gender' over the summer holidays, still best friends, and is considering reverting to original gender in September.

Let tomboys be tomboys( my daughter was one, happy mum now) let quite gentle children be as they wish. This need for labels is so out of hand.

abbey, where are all these deliberately sexually provocative girls, spouting 'equal rights and feminism' bullocks? I confess to never having met a feminist of any age who deliberately wears short skirts that show their genitals and then get on the high horse when it's mentioned.

How can the trans gender issue be a 'deflection'. I don't understand the connection.

I wear a skirt quite a lot - well always now, because skirts hide a multitude of fat issues as well as being more comfortable around my thunder thighs ( I am only a size 1 4 by the way and 5ft 7 ins, but flabby and middle aged now). At school I wore a skirt up to my behind on occasions but was always careful to ensure next weeks washing didn't show. I learned to sit properly and to bend when needed so that I didn't show anything. It was called being decent.

I have worn trousers. They are hot in this current weather … but there is a point being missed here.

Whatever you put on a uniform list the pupils will try to break it. Trousers will be come tight leggings with low tops showing all they can. Skirts are short , shorts are even shorter ( showing bottom cheeks is the order of the day right now).

But the real problem is that some young women/girls are deliberately using short skirts and over sexualised behaviour. They are not innocents. They know exactly what they are doing and how flaunting their open legs ( with or without shorts) is sexualised behaviour - then of course someone get on a high horse when the issue is mentioned.

I have direct experience of this . I have seen the girls doing this. They get shirty if you tell them to behave more appropriately and can give you all the gab about "equal rights and feminism" . But its bullocks. What they are doing is being deliberately sexual and provocative. Its rebellion at best, more likely though in my opinion , a sad case of needing to validate themselves in some way and the only way they know is dressing like a Miley Cirus on weed. Therein it is a product of our society as well

If you ban skirts and dresses, they will do the same with shorts or trousers or anything else.

The trans gender issue is a deflection.

adaunas with funding for schools being in effect cut, class numbers rising and teacher numbers being reduced I wouldn't hold your breath!

I read the comment that "if a boy did choose to wear a skirt to school, he'd likely be ill treated by his peers." I agree that "that fits with up skirting in the list of totally unacceptable behaviour." However, I don't think "Homophobic, trans bullying should be top of our list to challenge." Schools are doing a lot to help children understand sexuality issues, but I think all sorts of bullying need attention. It's a difficult one but I don't want to see special support/programs being set up for sufferers from homophobic, trans bullying whilst those children who bully and are bullied without being part of a specified group are left to cope. (I see a lot of them who we help as best we can with the shortage of funding, so any further deserving groups would stretch the resources even more thinly. ) Acknowledging that there are even more vulnerable groups is a good idea. Anyone think there's a chance we'll get extra funding for resources, training and support?

What a lovely child.

My friends grandchild is a boy. He is fine boned and has very lovely long hair and wears a stretchy hair and to keep it off his face. In jeans or shorts & tee shirt he is often taken for a girl. He very clearly explains that he is a boy with long hair," I don't mind you thinking I am a girl. They are nice too. But I am just a boy with long hair"

Alexa I dispute your allegation If my sons had wanted to wear dresses to school they would have damaged their reputations with their peers
As I have already said one of my DSs wore a skirt (kindly provided by one of the girls) to go into school one day. (He changed in the yard and stuck the trousers he left home in in his bag). I don't think wearng the skirt damaged his relations with his peers -quite the reverse. The authorities were a different matter and behaved in a very reactionary manner. They didn't seem to appreciate the joke or the irony that there were girls in trousers in the class. I sometimes wonder what they would do today, much more difficult to over-react.