What do you think a femisist is?

I will keep grinding my feminist battleaxe until I am satisfied that women and girls are not subjected to systemic disadvantage, both de jure and de facto, compared to men and boys, both in the public and domestic sphere.

Until then, I’ll keep grinding in honour of those who came before me who achieved so much to make my own life as a woman a brighter and more hopeful future than it once would have been.

I am in the older group of GN-ers, I graduated in 1964 and I worked in industry for a series of different, mainly engineering, companies. Heavily male dominated industries, where I was the only or, occasionally, nearly only woman who wasn't in a clerical role.

I think in the 1960s/70s, women at the educational and managerial level I was at, had the benefit of novelty and being few on the ground. Most companies had formal job, grading, pay scales and increments and as there was no element of gender specificity in the work I did. The job was graded without gender being an issue.

Feminism means different things for different people depending on what era they grew up in. Starting with women's suffrage and the right to own property, the 'women's movement' has evolved over many decades and brought about many positive changes.

In my 'era', many women were still being groomed to fulfill their predestined roles as wives, mother's and homemakers. Being 'liberated' meant you were considering something other than nursing, teaching or a business career (i.e. secretary or retail salesperson).

Over time, the Feminist movement (i.e. women's movement) made up of Feminists of both genders, has fought and won equality......Equality for partners to share domestic obligations and child rearing ('stay at home dad'), improved legal recourse for child support, wider educational and professional opportunities for women and a narrower gender gap for economic success.

Most recently, Feminism has shed a bright light on
professional sexual harassment ('me too' movement), equal pay, and better (non discrimination) practices in hiring and promoting. It is also systematically widening the very large 'crack' in the legendary glass ceiling.

So, to answer your question PECS, my definition of a 'feminist' is someone who advocates change for women! A change agent who seeks to improve the plight of all women from all walks of life; someone who supports/creates opportunities for women so that they can reach their full potential and be more successful.

The point is the many prejudices against women and the discriminatory practices which have affected their educational and employment opportunities are not "in the past".

I don't know if anyone watched (about 2 years ago) two programmes entitled "No More Boys and Girls". The doctor who presented them said that boys' and girls' brains are almost identical and he believed there is a great deal of evidence to suggests that gender-stereotyping is what stops true equality between the sexes.

At the outset of the "experiment" girls and boys were asked for their opinions re children of the opposite sex to themselves. Despite being only 7, boys and girls showed that they already believed there were significant differences between male and female. Every girl but one thought that boys are "better". One girl said "Men are better at being in charge". Conversely, the boys were shown to have a very low opinion of girls' intellectual and practical capabilities.

The doctor removed anything from the classroom which related pink to girls and blue to boys (from my recollection, I believe girls had pink work boxes and boys blue) and any material around the classroom that portrayed traditional roles. To challenge the gender-specific roles that both boys and girls had, in earlier discussions, assigned themselves, he brought in a female mechanic/a female magician and a male ballet dancer/male make-up artists. He also pointed out to the very nice (male) teacher that he was addressing boys and girls differently - the girls were I think called "sweetheart" and the boys were called "mate".

By the second week it became clear from what the children were saying and doing that girls showed more confidence in their abilities and boys showed more respect and empathy for girls.

I expect there are a lot of people who call themselves "feminists" but whose views as to what feminism is are very different, as with any group of people. I would describe myself as a feminist in that I want men and women to truly respect each other and to be freed from gender-stereotypical notions of how they should behave and what roles they should take on.

I don't see why a man should not call himself a "feminist". I expect most men who describe themselves in that way accept that they cannot claim to have had the same experience as women but I don't think that should mean that they cannot identify with feminism and support its aims. As others have already mentioned, feminism for many women means that men can also be liberated from stereotypical notions of how they should feel and behave. Given that men are more likely to resort to anger and aggression in challenging or upsetting situations and are thus more likely to end up in prison, freedom to show what has traditionally been seen as feminine emotions - eg sadness and fear - may well benefit them too.

Unfortunately, it is often women who perpetuate these gender-stereotypical notions. There are many accounts on this thread of women who say they were brought up to think of themselves as being equally capable as men and who went on to higher education and professional careers. Perhaps Gransnet has more highly educated, successful career women than the general population. For my part, my education was never seen as particularly important and the only advice I recall my Mum giving me was to marry someone who had a good job and salary because "when poverty flies in the door, love flies out the window". It consequently never even occurred to me that I should strive to achieve qualifications, go on to university and get a good job - and neither did it occur to my friends in our all girls secondary modern school. Though a later art teacher in another school urged me to continue with the subject, my Dad told me you have to be "good" to get a job in the field of art and instead I had little choice but to undertake a commercial course in shorthand and typing, which I loathed.

I suspect that those who say they were never held back nor disadvantaged by their gender are in the younger cohort of Grans and/or had careers in the professions or civil service - these were among the first to equalise terms and conditions , probably because of the pressure from strong women in the professions and certainly thanks to the efforts of a strong Union in the Civil Service.

Someone has posted a series of pictures from the seventies of the staff at a local Primary school. It is striking that in the earlier pictures there are only 2 men in the pictures - The Headmaster and the Janitor. This continues until 1976 when suddenly there is 1 more man, a young teacher. By 1979, the headmaster has retired and been replaced by........Youv'e guessed it ......the young male teacher. he, in turn has been replaced by another female teacher.

The first 2 'Feminist' campaigns I was involved with were both to do with housing. One was concerned with Council Housing as Council tenancies were then, late70s, early 80s, issued in one name only, generally the 'Man of the House'. This meant that a man could throw his wife (and/or) children out of the house on a whim or after a fight or disagreement, leaving them homeless, with no recourse to the law. Alternatively if the man left the house and did not pay the rent the wife and children would be evicted and have to apply for alternative housing. We campaigned and succeeded in having all Council tenancies issued jointly to both partners.

The other campaign was for the Matrimonial Homes Family Protection Act, which gave spouses the right to remain in their own home, even if their name was not on the tenancy, ownership or mortgage documents, and to have the other spouse barred from the property if Domestic Violence could be proved.

Later, I was involved in the campaign around Rape in Marriage. which was also successful in that charges could be brought, although the first case under the new law was found 'Not Proven', as the judge directed the jury to the fact that the Husband claimed that he 'did not know there was lack of consent'.

This type of change to the law and 'custom and practice' did not happen out of the blue but rather had to be fought for every step of the way. Sadly most younger women do not appreciate or acknowledge the work and dedication of their older sisters in getting us to where we are today.

Luckygirl ouch! I know! I too tried to balance an argument on MumsNet, also about men, and the flame-throwers came out! It's a different place from here isn't it? Very quick to infer I said something completely the opposite... Also when they "have a go" at someone they don't hold back do they? Luckily I haven't had the worst of that, but reading it about others made me wince. Thank God for GransNet!
I had some "attitude" from a male boss in the 70s, a Headmaster who told me before I started teaching at his school that "now women are paid the same as men, I don't expect you to have several days off a month." He also said, "I let my women teachers wear trousers so long as they are like a suite, very smart and have a jacket to go with them". Now he could not say that. It was still preferable to the other Headmaster though who was always trying to put his arm round me and get me in the dark corridor to "sort out the library books" and even held up my P.E. shorts at a Staff Meeting, (he must have taken them from my bag in my room), saying "I don't want to have to find these in lost property". I'd prefer a man who resented equality of the sexes to one who was a lascivious predator any day. But that's nature, laws can't totally eliminate the worst of human nature.

I agree with M0nica to me it's equal opportunity and respect for either sex or indeed for everyone. Feminism was a necessary movement to overcome the many prejudices against women in the past. Ironically I think sometimes it has made things a bit difficult for some men who want so much to be fair but are so worried about doing something wrongly that they don't look after their own interests!
I've stopped being a feminist most of the time because life is usually fair now. I've become an "equalist"!

I was one of 4 girls, we were taught that we were equal in everyday to men even though society didn't treat us that way. My dad taught us all the workings of an electric circuit in the home, how to wire in ab electric socket, car maintenance and even how to drill and which raw plugs to use and so on stuff my friends had no idea about. Mum taught us all cooking, sewing and home skills so I grew up very confident in myself. but saying all this when it came to a decision about a career my mum tried to push me into hairdressing as it was something I could do once I was married and had children. My dad, well he simple said either marry a rich man or if you don't then at least you know all about diy. I also agree with MaryXYX especially the bit about freeing men from being portrayed in a stereotype way. Equality for both men and women.

I think thats nonsense Sarahellenwhitney I have never come accross anyone who has stamped their feet and cried sexism if they didn't get a job...I dont think its common with women or indeed with people of colour who I hear have done the same thingg.Of course every one is different but MOST people understand they have to not only have the right qualifications but "fit" in with company policy etc before they can be given the position.
Feminism is about CHOICE ..the choice to work or stay at home raising children..as you did.The choice to be a shop assistant or a surgeon with no barriers put in our way.
I have run 2 businesses in tandem for 42 years ..I also raised my children and looked after a home and elderly infirm parents ..That was MY choice .
I take full resposibility for how my life is and thats all we can do.I dont run down the folk who lived their lives differently than I have .Although I did wonder what on earth SAHM 's found to do all day every day for years ...it was none of my business or anyone else's .

Pecs The 'no trousers allowed' etc was not an issue that would have rattled my cage to the extent I brought out my banner proclaiming 'equality'.
I was once interviewed ,on applying to a company for a management position, by a female manager. Not unusual as women even in my younger!!! days were in management positions.Not going into full detail I was asked the usual questions ie experience etc. I presented what I considered to be what they were looking for. I did not get that job.However should I, when learning that a 'male' was given the job I had applied for, gone out and waved my banner of equality or accept as I did that I was not made of the material this company were looking for. An issue those, with heads in the sand, feel applies to their gender refusing to accept they haven't got what it takes. ?

Sorry paddyann that sounded as though it was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was just me sounding off.

paddyann I totally agree with you but it must be a choice. My point was that shops and the media restrict the choice of our children.
I also hate the phrase 'girly girl'. It suggests that if a girl doesn't want to buy into the 'pink and spakly' thing and spend weekends getting her nail done then she is less of a girl. I also loathe the word 'tomboy'. It implies that a girl who loves the outdoors and active things is like a boy.
Don't mean to rant but I feel so strongly about this.

my OH's best friend and his wife were late to parebthood ,we were all warned to buy nothing pink 'sparlky or "girly" and we obeyed .Said baby girl had greys and whites and yellows ..no dresses no flowery stuff etc.When she was about 4 she decided SHE wanted her room painted pink and purple and she is the most girly girl you will ever meet..even now she's a qualified accountant .Stopping girls from wearing pink or boys from playing with war toys wont work.People are all different and surely thats true feminism...they must make choices to suit them

Oh that's sad Nanny27. My daughter does all she can to avoid pink and sparkly clothes for her little girl who is quite happy. She waz appalled to find t shirts last year in Tesco saying future scientist in boys rack whereas on tge girls rack they were pik and said future princess. She swapped them over! Guess which one she bought?

Not a word or concept I use or pay attention to. My adage is if you want to do it, give it a try, you've nothing to lose.

Pink and sparkly is fine as an option but I happen to know of a little girl who hates the whole ‘pink and sparkly’ fashion and says to her mummy that she doesn’t think she’s a proper girl. Make me want to weep for her.

She’d be happy without pink and sparkly too. It’s up to us to show her it isn’t an inevitable part of being a girl.

Grandma70sLet our children/grandchildren enjoy their innocence whilst they have the chance.
By all means fight the feminism cause behind their backs as ignorance is bliss, but if the child is happy with pink and sparkly then what is up with that?
As you have said, it is HER birthday!

I remember in the 1970's I couldn't get sterilised or take out a hire purchase agreement without my husband's permission, despite earning my own salary. Don't lets forget how far we have come.

I agree with Nanny27 ‘s point about gender stereotypes now being worse than they used to be. I have being trying to find a good birthday card for my about-to-be-6 granddaughter that isn’t pink and sparkly. Not that she would mind pink and sparkly, but I do.

My grandson’s school has football for girls as well as boys. I’d have hated it myself, but if girls want to do it, they should have the chance. Similarly, boys should do ballet. Obviously some do, but most would find it difficult.

Also agree with MaryXYX

Sorry i meant first bit of second paragraph. Believing in equal rights etc.

I agree with Granny23's first paragraph (have not read whole thread.
But I do think that unfortunately some militant feminists have given feminism a bad name and it's been counter productive.

I grew up in the 1950s in Australia ExaltedWombat and just in my adult lifetime things have changed to enable a woman to take out a bank loan or mortgage in her own name, to continue working as a teacher or in the public service after she married or on becoming pregnant and to aspire to any job she had the skills and qualifications to do.

That is quite a few changes in a few decades not several generations. These changes are in the context of a relatively progressive country with Australian women being among the first in the world to have the right to vote in 1901. Some Australian states granted the right to vote even earlier. And what was the driving force behind these legal and social changes? Feminism.

We should never take our rights, freedoms and opportunities for granted. They didn't just happen, other people, women and men, fought very hard for them. As we see in some countries around the world that have had brief periods of female equality those rights can easily be lost as patriarchal regimes take control.

Feminism is about equal rights, equal opportunity and equality under the law.

Like that thinking MaryXYX