BREXIT? Am I just plain stupid?

I think everyone needs to move on from a discussion of why they voted the way they did. The only meaningful discussion now is about what happens next.
This is a report from the cross-party Home Affairs Select Committee about the implications for Customs. It is quite clear that a hard Brexit would be catastrophic for Britain.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhaff/540/540.pdf

Here is part of the conclusion.
“We were not satisfied with the answers we received to a vitally important question about planning for post-Brexit customs arrangements: who is in charge? The Government’s approach seems to us to lack focus, urgency and above all leadership. Any progress seems to rely on working groups of government officials, with no meaningful ministerial leadership. This is particularly worrying given that the costs involved would appear to be significantly higher than the existing Brexit contingency funding requested by the Home Office and even higher than the total envisaged by the Prime Minister for the whole Government.”

Bluegal, your question is a very sensible one. The referendum result calls on our government to take Britain out of the EU, and to dismantle a complex network of rules, regulations, laws and trading agreements in the hope that we can build up some new ones in time to stop our economy going into a major recession.

The referendum result was constitutionally non-binding (strictly speaking, our government could ignore the result) but our politicians are scared of the political consequences of ignoring the "Will of the People".

The talks are so complicated and so shrouded in secrecy that nobody other than the diplomats and civil servants actually knows what all the issues are and how close to agreement we are. One issue is the "Brexit Bill". The EU wants Britain to pay something like 60 billion pounds to cover the treaty obligations that we are backing out of. Boris says the EU can "whistle" for the money, because he knows that will please his supporters. We're likely to pay something close to 60 billion nevertheless, and nobody seems able to explain whether we are legally obliged to pay it or whether we are giving in to a form of blackmail. It's obvious that most of our politicians are well out of their depth. It's a bit like asking you or me to demolish a house and build a new one, without any experience of what materials to buy or what money to budget for.

This is the apathy that will allow the Brexit hardliners to shove us headlong into the most damaging attack on our country there has been since the war. Don't be bullied by the 'remoaner' taunts, you have a right to your opinion and should voice it on every occasion. if we don't speak up for what we believe, then we only have ourselves to blame when our grandchildren end up in an insignificant, impoverished, offshore tax haven Britain, which is what Johnson, Gove etc are steering us towards.

One of the MPs in the debates was talking about how much preparation was done for how 'leaving' would look to Scotland before the referendum was even held. The fact that there was no legal structure to show how leaving the EU would look done by this government before the referendum is what has caused so many problems. They were irresponsible in the extreme calling it and not preparing for all or any outcome.

Oh Nonnie, sad but true ?

varian Where is your evidence that Leave voters assumed it would be easy?
It is very easy to throw out casual insults but what does it actually achieve?

Again? Really?

There are plenty of excellent sources of information out there.

A lesson (?) for Britain on how to do precisely the wrong thing and get into a horrible mess?

I think the fundamental problem is that while it was easy for people to say they wanted to “leave”, there was no understanding about what that meant or what it entailed. Leaving the EU after forty years is a lengthy, complicated business which will cost billions of pounds in new regulatory systems, new infrastructure and a huge number of civil servants to implement it. It cannot be done in a few months. New trade agreements will take years to develop and the UK lacks the expertise to do this. In the meantime the economy will take a massive hit.
This could be mitigated against if a hard Brexit is avoided and the UK remains in the EEA or EFTA.
There is plenty of evidence available but the media response to Brexit is ill-informed, biased and lightweight.

It is a shame the British government could not have put as much effort into making the EU work as it is into making Brexit a mess.

I can see no reason why Bluegal shouldn't ask this forum whatever she wants to know. There is quite a lot of knowledge and some helpful people who are prepared to do a bit of research. Currently, I would think it is as good a source for information as any when it comes to acts. Go to the politics threads and ask, suggest, join in.

Surprised to hear that some people are happy about how things are going re B REX IT. Really? I am still waiting for a Leaver to tell me what Britain post leaving will look like. Come on, share the joy!

and despite voting to Remain,Scotland and NI will be dragged out too,against our will.With NO voice in the "discussions"Brexit will destroy the Scottish economy ...but hey why would Westminster worry about that ...they take all they can from us anyway

..oh yes; and there are people who say things are going to get a lot worse before they get better but it's going to be worth it in the long run but, quite frankly, I'll probably be dead by then....

It's quite easy. We are going to leave the EU which is going to be a complete doddle according to Liam Fox and we're going to give £350 million pounds per week/month or something like that to the NHS [according to Johnson, Gove, Patel and Gisela Stuart; oh whoops forgot, the last two have gone, one in disgrace and one has just donearunner]. Simples....

I do not think that listening to the news will help Bluegal or anyone at all to understand the issues. It did not so so prior to the referendum and is no help now. Entrenched factions do not give helpful information.

I went to a variety of academic sources and waded my way through their papers prior to the referendum as I felt that it was important to actually make an effort to try and understand what it was all about or I did not have the right to cast a vote. I nearly did not vote at all; but on principle I did not think I could waste that right.

I am beginning to suspect that our negotiators do not understand the issues either. Whichever way the vote had gone I think that people had the right to expect that any subsequent discussions/negotiations would be conducted with a modicum of intelligence and integrity - but apparently not.

Is the government expecting to lose a vote and cancel Brexit?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/operation-stack-brexit-dover-customs_uk_5a0c9f64e4b0b37054f417dd

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-withdrawal-bill-key-areas_uk_5a0b2ba2e4b0b17ffce0b8b9?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

Good explanations in this link, Bluegal.

Don't worry Bluegal none of our negotiators seem to know any more about it than we do.

Manfred Weber, a key ally of Angela Merkel’s, has said that the UK must “clarify” what it will pay the EU when it leaves if it wants Brussels to open trade talks after December. Weber, a German MEP who leads the centre-right European People’s party (EPP) group in the European parliament, was speaking after he met Theresa May in Downing Street. He said:

When somebody is leaving the club then such a person or such a member state has to pay the open bill. That is what we are asking for - simply fairness, simply to do what you promised to do.

For the so-called sufficient progress question for the December council, the most important thing is not the figure. The most important thing is to clarify the commitments - the areas where Great Britain has to see its commitments.

Downing Street said May’s talks with Weber had been “constructive”.

They are, lemon. They are having more meetings than they are with us. They are being kind to us because they are going to give Davis extra meetings, to get his act together.

Can you explain why Davis said there were position papers, then Davis said May hadn't read them, then it turned out there weren't any?
As you seem to know a lot about it.

Are you watching the debate today?

Hollow laugh Welshwife ....we have to promise to give them eye watering amounts if not the actual money, which
Amounts to the same thing in the end and far more I bet than money we agreed to.
No durhamjen the EU are not getting on with it.

The EU do not want money up front but the agreement and promise of the monies OWED because we agreed this money at the time the budget was set.

Not at all disingenuous. I meant what I said.

Of course the EU don't want to give us what we want.
EU, 27 countries to the UK, 1.
WE are the ones who want to leave. Why should they make it easy for us.
THEY are getting on with it. May and Davis are not.
May and Davis have lied about the impact papers. Why did they do that if they wanted to get on with it, whatever it is, as was said in parliament today?

durhamjen a disingenuous comment from you, and actually no, that wasn’t the question from the OP at all.
If Bluegal wants to understand what is happening re Brexit, she must follow the news as the rest of us do.
There is no simple explanation from anybody on here as to what will actually happen or what kind of deal we will get....until we get one!
The EU are happy to drag their feet and put off discussions as long as possible, they are also demanding huge amounts from us ‘up front’ to even talk about trade deals but the time will come from them ( since they need deals just as much as us) to get on with it.