Universal Basic Income - a good idea?

Where pilot schemes have been run with this it is interesting to see that people do still work. They may, initially, use the opportunity to train or to become self-employed or even to move towards a lower paid job that brings them satisfaction in other ways. The only noticeable group who choose not to work are mothers of young children.

Another point that all UBI systems have/should have in common is that they are paid in 'cash' or the appropriate medium of exchange, paid regularly and periodically (not a one off) and are unconditional. This means control via your neighbours opprobrium or the government diktat will not exist for this, comparatively small amount of money - just like those with capital behind them at the moment.

Although you could compare the idea of “free housing, food, transport and internet access” to UBI as an alternative suggestion, I do not think it is UBI as it bears none of the hallmarks of those systems.

The idea that taxation "would remove the benefit entirely from those in work who would be left paying for it all" is a slightly perverse view of what UBI sets out to do.

The distinguishing factors of UBI, and the big change from a benefits system, is that it is paid unconditionally, eventually from when you are born to the day you die. So even when you are in a job and even if you are paying tax you will know it is there should the job disappear or should you choose to do something different you will have a little of the buffer those with large amounts of capital have always known – and I haven't noticed that stopping them working.

On the question of where the money comes from, do not fool yourselves by thinking it would be the equivalent of you who would be paying high taxes. It is important to understand that UBI is being considered because we are looking at the possibility of a society where most of us, were we young now, could only anticipate low paid work and that possibly being sporadic.

There would also be some extremely highly paid work but few people will be doing those jobs. So this money comes, as it always has, from taxation. However, it is not all additional tax as much, and eventually all, of the means tested system will disappear and the taxes currently used to pay and administer these systems will be freed up. A large proportion of the tax will come from the money making businesses too. This will not unreasonably burden them as they will not be paying the salaries they are now.

UBI is definitely gaining ground as a realistic way of dealing with the changes in the worlds economy and the huge diversity of income we already have that looks like getting much greater.

There is no reason why this could not happen in England and those devolved countries that still adhere to our system. Almost every suggestion I have seen starts very small and roles it out over time. The usual place to start is that you replace the countries equivalent of JSA or, in countries that do not have an equivalent, go straight into this system. Where historical means testing exists you would go first to those going on to the benefit and slowly into the rest of the population. In our case we would be talking about an initial sum of £73.10 and the JSA benefit being phased out.

Jollyg not quite sure what Nicola being childless has to do with how she does her job .As for her being a "fantasist" well I'm sure there are lots of folk down south who wish they had her type of "fantasist" in power...she's doing a good job on a restricted budget and as Independence is SNP core policy its right that she still has Referendum 2 in her sights...after all we who voted for her knew that was on the manifesto .

Employers would not be able to get away with paying lower wages if there was a decent living wage anyway.

That's okay, humpty. GracesGran has written quite a lot about basic income, and others have started off threads on it.
Barcelona is also doing it.

basicincome.org/basic-income/history/

Theses are all the experiments in it at the moment, if you are interested.

basicincome.org/news/2017/10/overview-of-current-basic-income-related-experiments-october-2017/

I hadn't realised that the idea is over thirty years old.

Sorry dj - thought I was being original for some reason!

I think the general idea is that there would be a large cost saving not only interms of current benefits but also through indirect costs such as staff working on benefits, offices etc., plus more money in people's pockets = more tax coming in for the govt.

would this mean that employers would be able to get away with paying lower wages?
If everyone is better off then the cost of living would surely rise - it is a Catch 22 situation.

Erm where would this largesse actually come from? Someone would have to pay. Taxation would remove the benefit entirely from those in work who would be left paying for it all. No incentive to make any economic effort.

There’s a difference between offering this to the unemployed and giving it to everybody though.....what, regardless of how much they earn?
Perhaps a country with a small population could do this, like Scotland.?
Certainly not throughout the UK though.

More people are interested, humpty.
Some of us have been discussing it on here for years.

It is definitely an interesting idea. In Finland they seem to have offered it to unemployed people as a starting point. (But only to a few hundred people).

From an economic viewpoint, it should work particularly in times of recession when growth needs to be stimulated.

But would it be politically acceptable?

*disagree

vampire, I completely agree, that is fine if it is used that way. While we're on that subject, maybe if practical provison rather than financial provision was made, it could be extended to cover free tertiary instruction, whether at college or uni for whatever type of training.

Or there could be a choice. Just throwing out ideas. TBH I'm amazed more people aren't more interested in this - even to diagree! - given the mess of universal credit.

Thanks for the explanation humptydumpty.

I'm afraid I disagree with you though. The idea is that people can use the money anyway they choose because however they spend it, it will help the economy.

It seems that a lot of people in Iran have used it to fund their continuing education. That can only be good for the country in the long run as a better educated population generally leads to higher wages and therefore more spending power.

Sorry vampire for not being clear; I simply meant that there has been some concern that if welfare support is given in the form of cash, it may be spent on luxuries rather than on making better provision for any children in the family. I'm not casting aspersions by saying this, I simply put it out there as a concern regarding welfare payments.

The idea of the UCL scheme would be to instead provide practical support to all families in the form of e.g. internet access.

Personally I've always thought that housing should be more an issue of a roof over people's head rather than an investment vehicle.

I disagree with the UCL, far too patronising.

The idea is that we'll all have more to spend and so will spend more thereby giving the economy a boost and the chancellor more tax in the form of VAT and other sales taxes. I'm not sure what the comment about cigs/booze etc. is about. If people choose to spend money on such things they pay more tax and please the exchequer.

I'm not sure what the 'cash in hand' comment is meant to convey so until/unless humpty dumpty explains in further detail I won't comment. Text doesn't always allow for a proper interpretation of what someone means because there is no intonation.

This scheme is in fact being given serious consideration in several countries, it has already been introduced in Iran and in the form of an annual @bonus' in Alaska, it really isn't some flight of fancy.

Personally, other than the housing componint - and regardless of robots in future - I like the idea of the UCL suggestion as it has none of the disadvantages associated with cash in hand (spending on cigs/booze instead of children etc.)

basicincome.org/news/2017/08/rsa-event-universal-basic-income-can-scotland-lead-way/

Scotland has been talking about it for a while.

basicincome.org/

If its a fantasy of NS, it will never work.

Same as independence for Scotland, she is a politician for for gods sake, sans children too, but perhaps by an quirk of nature like Theresa M

I was referring to the Scottish scheme.

The UK robot scheme just sounds daft!

Oh I see!
Well that sounds incredibly generous, and may be a way forward.
Also people may not give up on jobs too easily if they know in advance what their income will fall down to.
Could work.