The challenge of changing times and changing attitudes

Just reading about these parents and I think they are actually just looking for a fight. Apparently they removed their 8 year old from the school when the boy in question first wore a dress. They have now removed the child who is 6 and in the same form. There is more going on here. Why didn't they take the 6 year old out first, he was in the same class?
If the boy is happy wearing a dress and manages to mix and learn I think it is up to him and his parents after all girls can choose to wear trousers and no one thinks twice about it.

Is that what's actually happening?
If so, is it what the child actually wants? Or what adults have decided s/he must want?

The Japanese language has no words for he or she. Japanese people think it is very odd that genitals and sexuality are such a focus when speaking English.

My 4 year old Grandson started schoool a few days ago, and I really do not care about the gender issue.
This affects so few children and in fact I personally have not seen/heard of any, but if you listen to the press you would think it is common place.
It is so uncommon that my Granson would laugh at a boy in a dress. He is not a spiteful boy, just a boy would not understand the issues. He is going to school with the children he went to nursery with and this situation has not occurred.

I had not heard this detail in yesterday's TV exposure. Yes, very confusing! Also perturbed to think that other children would 'get into trouble' if they addressed him/her incorrectly according to the dress code. That does seem hard, especially as the children are so young.

The point is being missed here. The child concerned wants to be treated as a boy some days and a girl on others. This is confusing for other young children.does he/ she want to use the girls toilets on dress days and vice versa?
All the children dressing unisex would not solve this if the child want to be treated as Victor/Victoria on relevant days.

On one very practical level, I think keeping the choice re wearing skirts is important. I used to suffer from awful, very heavy periods in my teens. Even with advances in sanitary protection, as someone that uses towels, rather than tampons, I am sure I would have 'leaked' noticeably when wearing trousers. Not every young woman wants to use tampons and I think they should be free to wear what seems most comfortable and modest for them.

No, the bible is actually rather short on a lot of 'Christian' advice.

Why can't we go for 'gender neutral' uniform in schools - trousers, polo shirt, sweat shirt and then everyone gets a sense of belonging. These are children -comfortable and practical and of course, washable should be the important considerations where clothing is concerned.

I recall not being allowed to wear trousers for school because I was a girl and us girls feeling bad done by especially in the winter. When are schools going to learn that if they insist different uniforms for boys and girls they are going to land themselves in this sort of problem.

As a Christian I don't recall any sartorial advice being given in the bible and always got the impression that God had more important and bigger issues to deal with.

I think the reporting is muddling up different issues. My understanding is that a child comes to school in a dress some days and trousers on others. When wearing the dress, all the other children have to agree that she is a girl, when wearing trousers, they have to agree that he is a boy. If they don't do this, they risk getting into trouble.
I think this could be confusing for a class of 6 year olds and I don't agree that simply wearing a dress makes someone female.
I think all sides have handled this badly.

I heard the parents of the boy that was being taken out of the school being interviewed on the "Today" programme this morning.

Their reasons for taking their son out seemed to to be that he complained to them that he was "confused" that a classmate would sometimes come to school in boys clothes, sometimes in girls clothes.

So, it would seem that they then decided to home school instead, rather than perhaps try to gently explain how people can be different, and sometimes those people might have to go through some different things, but it doesn't make them bad.

If they are still kind, considerate and polite to their peers, then they should be treated the same way.

I always answered questions as simply as possible when mine asked,we have several gay family members and friends ,and it wasn't so "normal" 35 years ago .When they asked about 2 women being GF's it was easiest to tell them the truth that people love people ,sometimes men love women and sometimes they love men and Auntie R loves Auntie J .There were no problems from the children they just accepted that as fact

Eloethan, I agree.

To be clear, I am not agreeing with the couple's beliefs. Yes, there is a very wide spectrum of Christian belief and practise. Some practising Christians do believe they are able to be 'loving' towards without being 'accepting' of people who do not fit their view of biblically determined ideas of the 'right way to be'. Other Christians would say this is a bigoted approach. I was actually disappointed and frustrated to hear them claiming Christianity as their justification, all the more so as there seems to be growing antipathy towards the mention of being a Christian in our society these days.

Nor do I think it would be necessary to have a 'long discussion' about sexual identity with young children, - I would rather not have to have any such discussion at all at such a young age. I'm not prudish, I just think it is unnecessary.

I agree with Eloethan. Why make a big deal about it?

My DS, approx 30 years ago, complained to me that it was unfair girls could wear trousers if they wanted but boys couldn't wear skirts.
He had, and has, no interest in becoming female. He just fancied wearing different clothes.

I don't see a problem with a child wearing what they want but I do see a problem if adults pounce on that and encourage a young child to think that they want to change gender when that may not be the case at all.

How sweet trisher ( pants and fairy wings) that would really have made me smile ( as long as he isn't 15 )?

I am showing my age now.
I would have said to my son, I am happy for you to dress how you like when at home or out with us, but rules are made for a reason and boys go to school dressed as boys.
Children are allowed to do as they please far too much and are brought up as if they are the centre of the universe.
They need to learn they are not.

My Grandson is happy in his Cubs outfit , his school uniform, his swimming trunks & his Pyjams his 'boys clothes' his Elsa dress complete with crown & wig. But so far no longing to wear one type or the other to a disassociated place.

My youngestDS when he was about 7 loved dressing up as anything and did an excellent portrayal of his teacher in the Christmas Concert, wearing a long skirt and a cream blouse. When he was 11 he once accepted a dare and went into the classroom in a school skirt instead of trousers (He really got into trouble.) He is a perfectly normal young man and dresses like all the others now.
My DGS was wearing a pair of underpants and fairy wings the other day. It's just a stage, they grow out of it!

Imperfect You said "I suspect the Christian couple who went on the Victoria Derbyshire programme today will encounter a fair amount of negative abuse and derision and some of the scorn will be simply because they are Christians."

As I pointed out, since it is a C of E school, it can hardly be said that Christians en masse are closed-minded and
intolerant. I expect there are some people of all religions and of none who would create a fuss. But since this couple made a point of saying they were Christians, implying that this justified their stance, it made me - and perhaps other people - question what part of Jesus's teachings they believed gave them grounds for this sort of judgmental behaviour.

I don't see why it would be necessary to have long discussions about sexual identity, etc., with children on this issue. Why not, if asked, just say "he likes wearing a dress"? After all, girls wear trousers so why shouldn't boys wear dresses if they feel so inclined?

I agree leave it to the children who accept all races and colours. My GDs loved a little doll I brought home from the charity shop. I had knitted her a lot of clothes. After losing an arm which neither DH nor I could mend we put the doll away considering it broken.
The GCs asked where she was and I said we will have throw her away because she has no arm and her clothes don't fit.

Oh NO! She is only disabled, we like her, so I sewed up the sides of the tiny jumpers I'd knitted and felt ashamed.

We also have soft toys which wear boys and girl's clothes but I still wouldn't have sent a 'boy' to school in a dress. And not removed my children either.

I went to school back in the 1960's and I can remember a boy, called on to the stage in assembly, because he had long hair, he was given a letter and told to go home and not come back until he had his hair cut.

So, I ask, what's next, children bringing their pets to school because they can't bear to be away from them.

The sad thing is, I'm 67, so I've got at least another 10 to 15 years left, and I'm just wondering, that's all, whats next ?

my 8 year old granddaughter has a friend with two fathers (same sex marriage) and neither she nor any of their other friends have batted an eyelid about it. There has been the occasional question (how did she get born) but all of the children at the school have simply accepted this as perfectly normal and there has been no hoo ha, no discrimination at all. I think that these things are easier for all concerned if they are presented without fanfare. I think that had the child's parents made a massive thing about it it would all have been much harder

He didn't have any gender issues at all, it was the Mother,
Excercising her 'rights'.

There was a couple in the news last year who allowed their son to attend nursery in a sparkly princess dress whenever the mood took him.Hope this isn't the same couple!

Couldn't agree more paddyann.

Anyway back to the subject, I heard the interview on radio 4 this morning and i was more concerned about the fact that the child in question chops and changes on a daily basis between girls/boys clothes. I wonder if the parents are using the poor child as some kind of statement.

I had the exact opposite experience with my DGD Anniebach when she was around 2.5 years old. She attended a nursery (not attached to school) where a new boy had recently started. The little boy had very dark skin and I don't think DGD had ever seen anyone like this before. Seriously.

Anyway one day I had her out for a walk, she was pushing a little toy buggy when a very tall, dark gentleman approached us. My DGD then shouted " look grandma, its Rubens daddy" Puzzled I asked who Ruben was and she said (very loudly) "he's my best friend and that's his daddy" The man clearly amused winked at me and said "I'm sorry little one but I think you must have me mixed up as I don't have a little boy"