I know my place

I haven't heard the term "bottom of society" mentioned. I think what has been mentioned is that the disparity between the very richest/comfortably off and the very poorest impacts upon the way they are treated by those in authority.

This appeared to happen with regard to Grenfell Tower. Do you really think a complaint or concern raised by somebody with a lot of financial/professiona/political clout would be totally ignored by the authorities over a significant period of time? For one thing, those with money can afford to employ lawyers to represent them if their concerns are not addressed in a timely manner.

Of course, every person is of value but unfortunately not every person is treated as if they are of value. The very term "VIP" is emblamatic of the fact that society is comfortable with - and reinforces - the idea that certain people are naturally superior to other people.

Well I stated my life in a rental flat and we were over the moon when my mum and dad were allocated a prefab on a council estate when I was 7 ....I loved it , the best house I have ever lived in i played with all the kids, the mums looked out for each other, got the washing in for their neighbour if it rained, the dads were all at work I married into the forces and still lived in a nice social bubble in service houses and flats... when my marriage broke up I moved back home and was lucky to be allocated a council house and that's where I stayed until my nan died and left me her house I have never had any problem with looking upon my self as working class The fact that I had a good education, a profession and my own house has never made me want to be or indeed feel any different I have no problem at all in classing myself, so others have no need to.
When the prefabs were pulled down we went back to rental flats it worked the other way for me as my Dads family stayed in council houses all their lives My mums family owned their own house and my cousin ( all on dads side) classed me as a snob because of this and the fact I went to a smaller different school to them so they never wanted to know me
I have missed hearing this description on T V or news media and I have never heard people of council estates describe that way but it may be very different in inner cities to where I live in a small to middle sized town

I can only go by what you said.

The media are whipping up this poor/rich devide and some people are getting their knickers in a twist fighting for this so called bottom of society group.

I assumed you were referring to these people as the ones who said it. Enough now though - there must be better things in life than to quibble over a cliché as I said before.

It was said in a tv programme where the fire was being discussed, not by anyone involved

I did. I do apologise I must have missed that. Probably because most posts concentrated on the ladder. Either way, if someone was trying to help the people concerned, I can't see a problem. Did they complain?

Wrong GG, it started with the bottom of society , read the thread it may help you

I am amazed that we have a whole thread about a cliché. I am quite sure we have all referred to ourselves or others "starting at the bottom of the ladder" when talking about a job and I just can't see it as offensive.

We now find that this was used on television for people the user of "the bottom of the ladder" (although it now seems to have changed to the bottom of society) was fighting for. Trying to get other people a fair deal has nothing to do with envy and it seems unlikely, as they were fighting for the people described this way, that it was in anyway pejorative in it's use.

I think this 'ladder' of society is horizontal, with all of us sitting on it, waving our legs, all at the same height. Any one of us could fall through the rungs at any time, or lose our place and have to shift onto a different part.

I agree with paddyann here in SW.Scotland there is no distinction between those in council/private rent/private houses. In fact is there even such a thing anymore as a council estate, there cant be a street in any former council estates that doesn't have private and private rental properties.
Annie i agree with you too the term "bottom of society" is a disgrace and the media are the worst offenders.Money doesn't maketh the man or to quote Rabbie ( modern version) "a woman is a woman for aw that

And it was said on national tv not by anyone from any council. The media are whipping up this poor/rich devide and some people are getting their knickers in a twist fighting for this so called bottom of society group. I have never known envy - well apart from thoughts towards Alan Rickmans wife ?, always been rich and poor, this is not going to change, it is we who have to change and stop this obsession with class divide .

Anya, I have not taken it to heart for myself, I was brought up to know 'I am better than no man and no man is better than me ' and .god loves us all. I just get cross when people are spoken of this way,

As one GNer always says in discussions like this 'context is everything'. The exact quote and the exact circumstances would clarify what was meant. What's so certainly true is that if you are a social housing tenant in K&C in GT you were not listened to or treated with respect - you could deduce from that that you seen by others as the bottom of the pile/heap/society - that doesnt mean you ARE it's about how certain others PERCEiIVE you in their list of priorities.

No one can put you down unless you choose to be put down. Same with people being victimised or bullied.

That's not to say it's not happening but many people just shrug if off while others take it t heart. So change your mind set Annie and don't let them grind you down.

Its all a bit reminiscent of what the Victorian's used to call 'the deserving poor' as averse to 'the undeserving poor'. In those days you only had to be a single parent to be labeled 'undeserving'! Thankfully times have changed but there are still those quick to label people and justify their attitudes.

I think what is difficult for many of us is to witness people who have had a few chances in life, state education, NHS services and benefits when times get hard, yet they still seem to expect cause havoc in their neighbourhoods. On specific cases one can argue that perhaps there are unmet mental health issues or traumas and misfortune but sometimes some people are their own worse enemy.
However,I will very strongly refute all arguments about the general labelling of people who live in social housing.
Its there for a purpose - some people will never afford their own houses. Many would like to rent privately but that is completely unaffordable for many especially in many cities let alone London. Some will move on, some will stay all their lives.....its their home and that all their is to it!

Annie, it simply means that there is some objective way - albeit approximate - to do research into, for example, whether there is a discrepancy in access to healthcare ( to name but one thing) depending on levels of 'deprivation'. It is NOT intended to be derogatory in that context, and it is the only way in which access to services will become more equal across society.

It is derogatory , are the unemployed the bottom of society? No they are not,

I think these sort of terms really relate to deprivation. It is very difficult to know how to define that, maybe living in social housing is one contributory factor. It's not meant to be derogatory, it is just one of a number of factors such as proportion of working age people who are unemployed, average no. of people per room, car ownership etc., to derive a measure which can be used to look at how health outcomes are related to levels of deprivation.

I have never heard anyone describe themselves as being at the bottom of society, I heard it this week on tv and it was said about people living in council flats.

What is this social ladder ? I do not acknowledge it. People are tall/short, plump/skinny, boring/amusing, able bodied / disabled . They have one thing in common, they are human beings free to walk the streets , vote, breath the same air, all people bleed if cut, all need a loo , all need love.

Good posts Lillie
Anyone saying that has a cheek ,'the bottom of society' indeed ,to mean council tenants!

Yes, GGMK2, maybe that's because we're all too busy worrying about ourselves in this day and age. We hardly give a thought to others, it would seem. That's why the comment, "I see where you're coming from" is so meaningless.

My father used to tell me that everyone, from dustman to Duke is equal. I haven't found any reason to believe he was wrong. Isn't this often a case of inverted snobbery by people who (probably quite reasonably) feel quite insecure and attribute this sort of thing to themselves as in "I know everyone thinks we are at the bottom of the heap/pile/society" I really haven't heard anyone saying this to describe other people.

^ it matters to me not because I live in social housing, I detest people being placed on social levels, it is a form of racism.^

Yes, it's people's perceptions that are distorted then, Annie.

By the way, I'm glad you put this in the "Chat" section, instead of "politics" entering into it.

I grew up on a council estate. My parents were married in 1950 and moved into their house shortly before I was born. At the time, the Spadeadam Rocket Establishment was being developed, for our attempt at joining the space race. The authorities built houses for the research workers, engineers etc.,on farm land just beyond our homes. My Dad worked at Spadeadam, and I was often asked by friends why I didn't live on their estate. It was always a challenge trying to make them understand that we were there before the houses were built, and I remembered playing in the fields where the houses now stood. My parents bought their house at the beginning of the right to buy scheme, and we sold it when my Dad died two years ago. Most of that estate is now privately owned.

Not healthy living in s Vacum GG and there is so much beauty and joy in the real world, join us , fling open your Vacum bag and sniff the fresh air

Lillie, it matters to me not because I live in social housing, I detest people being placed on social levels, it is a form of racism