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What woud you have said?

(128 Posts)
Luckygirl Sun 29-Jan-17 17:08:23

In the village shop when owner - lovely lady, kindness itself - makes a remark to you about how she cannot understand why people are up in arms about Trump being happy to use torture, as "those people" are blowing the heads off others with no conscience. I did venture the comment that you cannot be sure you are torturing the right person, and we cannot be a party to torturing innocent people. She laughed and said that the authorities know who these people are. Are we all now to stoop to that level?

Izabella Wed 01-Feb-17 17:36:36

Phew. Wondered what I had said and realised there is someone with a very similar Monica.

Ana Wed 01-Feb-17 16:48:45

Isabella1 are you seriously suggesting that the UK has only been prevented from bringing back the death penalty because it was a member of the EU?

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. We weren't even in it when it was abolished here.

Penstemmon Wed 01-Feb-17 16:33:33

I said that too yorkshiregel confused

I think you were really trying to suggest that Muslims are more likely to cause harm to people than other groups. Soryr if I got that wrong?

Just to be 100% clear on my position I do not defend the death penalty, torture or other form of physical punishment/abuse. I do not care who carries it out. It is wrong in all cases.

Isabella1 Wed 01-Feb-17 11:06:38

"If there was a referendum on the death penalty, I fear the public may vote for it to be re-instated."

That's an interesting point because one of the things that has been preventing this was our membership of the EU.

ethelwulf Wed 01-Feb-17 10:30:28

We all know how true it is that history repeats itself, as the human race seems incapable of learning from past mistakes, however devastating their effects. A self-obsessed, ruthless, autocratic leader selects a scapegoat group, usually defined by race and creed, and demonises them… initially as part of a political initiative in order to gain power. The leader carefully cultivates his image as a champion of the people, who will tirelessly oppress all those who are imagined to be “anti- Nation”, and publicly declares that he is destined to be remembered as the greatest National leader for over a century. Their election campaign is characterized by racism, religious bigotry, homophobia, by outright lies, and by appealing to the worst, demeaning aspects of human nature. Having gained power, they then quickly set about introducing Legislation which directly discriminates against the scapegoat group on the basis of race and religious belief. Anyone in his administration who has the temerity to disagree with him is quickly ridiculed and removed, and is described as “unpatriotic”. Moreover, facts which clearly and accurately reflect badly on the new administration are not only buried, but are replaced by “alternative facts”, which can otherwise be described as blatant untruths. Carefully selected spokespersons for the new administration perpetuate the big lie, and continue to denigrate and ridicule those who hold alternative views. Propaganda is produced and disseminated on an industrial scale. Agencies which used to play a vital role in advising the leader are marginalised and ignored, as power and decision-making become increasingly centralised and despotic. The use of State-sponsored violence and torture are normalised. Does this sound like post-Weimar Germany in the 1930’s? It certainly describes what happened then, but sadly, it also describes the challenges now faced by the country which was, until recently, the greatest and most powerful democracy on Earth.. the United States of America… Not my business? What is happening there is already causing pain and suffering both at home there and in the wider world, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Depressing times for all of us, and a living nightmare for many…

Yorkshiregel Wed 01-Feb-17 10:15:27

Penstemmon, yes there are people like that, there are also people who would not think twice about chopping people's hands, ears, fingers, or heads off too. Or blowing themselves up so as to kill others, or dropping a rucksack with a bomb on the ground in a crowded place.

Like I said, good and bad everywhere.

Yorkshiregel Wed 01-Feb-17 10:11:19

We have a local corner shop like that one DeeWhyO. The only difference is that these people are Muslims from Asia. They started with a shed selling groceries and now, thanks to the whole family taking their share of the work, they have a big shop full of everything you could ever need. They are really friendly and well liked in our community. Open all hours and weekends as well. Respect to them!

SparklyGrandma Wed 01-Feb-17 00:06:43

Zorro21 - you have a point about Eastenders, but there is usually something funny in it.

Trumpery that IS funny flowers

DeeWhyO Wed 01-Feb-17 00:00:10

Just going back to village shop people, ours are a family from Sri Lanka. They are all hard working, charming and cheerful and keep the shop open all day and into the evening 7/7. I believe torture is very wrong. Politics around the world seems to be going through some very difficult times.

Penstemmon Tue 31-Jan-17 20:44:06

Every national / ethnic/ religious group is made up of people like you : they breath, love, hate, get angry, are happy , sad, kind, mean, good and bad etc. etc.

If we continually separate ourselves by thinking 'we' are one thing and 'they' are another and refer to a whole nation of people as 'They are not so bad' 'they are bad' it becomes easier for those with nationalistic /racist attitudes like 'America/Britain/Saudi First' etc etc to use propaganda to demonise, undermin and hehumanise whole groups of people and then they can divide people to gain power for themselves.

We are all humans beings/people with feelings and emotions just the same.

Jane10 Tue 31-Jan-17 15:49:37

Polish people are well established here since the war when Polish regiments moved here and even our local uni hosted the a Polish medical school. I'm soon to have a Polish niece by marriage and she's just terrific. She'll be a real asset to the family. I must be sure and invite my neighbour to meet her!

Yorkshiregel Tue 31-Jan-17 15:21:18

Maybe if you want to be pedantic I should have said 'All the Polish people I have met are hard working and honest'?

Good and bad everywhere, in every country as you say.

Jalima Tue 31-Jan-17 12:47:36

I don't mind Polish people. They are hard working and honest.
But that is a bit generalistic

I probably would like some and not others, in the same way I feel about people around the world. Most will be hardworking and honest, a few will not be.

Judthepud2 Tue 31-Jan-17 12:37:43

And i don't think it is religion per se that causes trouble, but the people who interpret it to suit their own often warped and evil ends.

Judthepud2 Tue 31-Jan-17 12:34:14

YG the 'eye for an eye' law is from the ancient Code of Hammurabi. JC advised that Christians should leave this ancient law behind. Too many professed 'Christians' wanting to return to the old barbaric way.

Martin Luther King said: 'The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind' !

Yorkshiregel Tue 31-Jan-17 12:03:41

Jane10 people seem to forget that Polish airmen helped us during the war when we were fighting the Germans. I don't mind Polish people. They are hard working and honest.

Yorkshiregel Tue 31-Jan-17 12:00:47

Also Judthepud2 I agree with you about how torture damages the person doing the torture. It makes them in to monsters who have no empathy.....the SS used to train their troops by making them watch people being shot/tortured or killed in other ways.

Yorkshiregel Tue 31-Jan-17 11:57:11

Judthepud2 The thing with quotes from the Bible is that you can always find one that says the opposite.

ie: An Eye for an Eye, would be one that took the opposite view to the one you quoted.

That imo is why people interpret it in different ways. Not wishing to get in to an argument, but I think religion causes a lot of trouble in the world. Segregation, discrimination, cruelty, and pain.

On the other hand I think it is good to have something to believe in especially when you are having a hard time in your life, or if you are in a war situation. Better to have something to cling to than nothing.

Judthepud2 Tue 31-Jan-17 11:11:32

Iam your comment is exactly one of my concerns about torture. It not only damages the tortured but the perpetrator also.

Margi Tue 31-Jan-17 10:59:40

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELD2AwFN9Nc&feature=youtu.be

Zorro21 Tue 31-Jan-17 09:31:13

Elrel - spot on. Trump said that his defense secretary's opposition to torture would override his own belief that enhanced interrogation "does work," quietly giving ground after growing public concern about a return to Bush-era use of waterboarding and other especially harsh procedures.

Elrel Tue 31-Jan-17 09:22:07

Jane10 - wow, does your neighbour not know anyone from another country, does she not get out much? Sad and worrying.

Anya Tue 31-Jan-17 09:19:27

BarbaraLorna that is a very good point.

Jane10 Tue 31-Jan-17 09:18:35

I'm late to this so sorry for dragging you back to the OP. I was startled last week when a neighbour was in for coffee. We were talking about window cleaners. She stated that she didn't want any of 'these foreign people in her house'. By this she meant one of the legion of hardworking Polish people who prop up our service industry. We're big fans in our house and now count many Polish people as friends (and soon to be relations by marriage). I tried to defend them but she just changed the subject. Will persevere!

Elrel Tue 31-Jan-17 09:08:31

I thought that 'Mad Dog' who is in charge of the US military had advised his president that torture DIDN'T work and had thereby changed his president's 'mind'.