What woud you have said?

Torture is like drowning women to see if they are witches. If they drown they are innocent, if they float burn them.

SparklyGrandma - Eastenders is never a cheerful subject, surely - Trump is much funnier !!

merlotgran thats funny it is nicer if they chat...at my local shop they try to keep on cheerful subjects so its easy to join in, the weather, the childrens school holidays, Eastenders, the cost of milk or chocolate.

As the only Guardian reader for miles, I have learned to be careful!

princesspamma
I too live in a village but avoid these 'village shop' dens of opinions like the plague.
I voice an opinion but there are boundaries and we should not force what we believe on to others.
I deplore what is going on in the middle east but surely common sense has to ask why and who was responsible in the last thirty years to allow it to get to this stage.?
Now we have someone with the b---s to say 'enough is enough'
and the world awakes.
Extreme? but hasn't 'complaisance' ruled long enough?.

The subject of Trump is becoming as divisive as Brexit. I was having lunch with some girlfriends when the subject came up and one of them was singing Trump's praises. The rest of us made mild replies and tried to change the subject. It was quite uncomfortable for a while, but we didn't want to fall out with a life long friend.

I would have said that Trump will do what he likes in his own country. We in this country are a bit more civilized, at least we think we are.

Torture for any reason is EVIL and should be confined to the dark ages. In any case people will say whatever it is you want them to say under torture so it is not reliable and it probably will not be the truth.

I don't think turning your back will have any affect on his behaviour whatsoever, he will ignore it.

I think that we should not stop Trump from coming to this country but we could show our disapproval of his actions by ignoring him, turning our backs when he is travelling around and not lining the streets to see him. He'll not enjoy that, will he?

A difficult thing. I live in a village where nearly everyone "took against" a pub because of a row where the landlord made a noise in the early hours on one occasion only and caused a problem with one lady because he wouldn't stop the noise. It led to all sorts of problems when he wanted planning permission for something very minor.

Just make a joke of it and say "Can you hurry up and just serve me because I need to go home and torture my family" unless you have strong views on the subject which you can defend. Villages are a hot bed of gossip.

Torture is wrong and, no Mr Trump, it doesn't work. Under duress people will say anything.

Thank goodness I don't live in a village anymore!

In a village shop perhaps just the words "Well people say anything under torture" might have made her think. Or perhaps "I thought we had moved on since the Middle Ages" But that's the trouble isn't it? it's easy to think of things afterwards. It always shocks me when people come out with things that are so uncivilised. It just makes you realise that we are only a step away from things like the rack and flogging.
radicalnan we did allow flights for rendition and those responsible got away with it on a technicality but just because one wrong thing happened doesn't mean we shouldn't stand up for what is right.

Bring it on. I think Her Maj will be our secret weapon: her experience with all those commonwealth despots she's worked with diplomatically over the years and brought to heel will stand her in good stead with Trump. His vastly inflated ego will do the rest.

Well in the 50's when it was the law to hang people we hung a few who were innocent.

maryhoffman37.
Who can say or how do we know that fighting fire with fire has ever/never achieved anything ?

Achieving ones object in a civilised manner went out of the window long ago when it was observed that there were disturbed humans amongst us who were prepared to commit such atrocities on their fellow human beings.

I live by these ideas: 'silence gives consent', and 'the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing'. I wouldn't get into a row, or give your shopkeeper's ideas value by debating them, but i would be unable to do the 'sickly grin and non-committal noise' appeasement thing. I would stand by my principles, say that I did not agree, sorry, but isnt democracy wonderful that we can all air our views, and change the subject pointedly to the weather! If they persisted I would cut my nose off to spite my face, put down whatever I was intending to buy, and leave the store, and not return! Hubby says I make my life difficult by holding to my principles, but i believe we are the sum of our core beliefs, and need to be willing to hold to them. But i am not bolshy and militant all the time, and i do always first try the agreeing-to-disagree approach, and when it works am very relieved!

We had one who spent her whole time on the phone while serving you. You never even got eye contact, let alone views on world politics

If we saw a campaign to defend the lifestyle and culture of people on some far flung village up the amazon, or in the Laplands (is that even a word) outer Mongolia etc we would be sympathetic to their cause and culture. When it is on our own doorstep we think it racist to want to keep outsiders out, that is human nature, politically corrected by post modern thinking.

As for torture, we allowed flights for rendition purposes, I believe, to land in UK, we are (and America is) bombing people, why is it torture when done to individuals to obtain information and OK when it is mass murder in war?

We are working with human nature, not a two dimensional thing, goes back generations, and we stand on the shoulders of giants, are we just going to throw away what they worked for and believed? Replacing communities with people who don't speak the same language or hold the same values, is just the same as destroying cultures in exotic places.

Financial torture makes slaves of all of us, there are people in the Western world homeless and hungry and afraid and abused, torture by any other name.

I don't approve of torture.....but if I thought it would save many more lives I would have to have a very hard think about it.

You cannot pretend that any atrocity is more acceptable than any other, or that any culture of more worthy of protection.

Out on a walk with our rambling club, the conversation turned to how many immigrants we were letting in (before Brexit, but in the run up). I simply pointed out the population of the EU vis a vis the quoted numbers of migrants, and hopefully gave some context (or at least food for thought). Not everyone is well informed, deep thinking, politically correct or whatever. We can still get an opposing view across and remain on reasonable terms, I find. No need for aggression or confrontation. Unless that's what you're looking for of course. It doesn't sound like the village shop lady was.

I have been shocked on several occasions in the last few months by the views of people I know well. Or thought I did.It is difficult not to let it colour my relationship with them. I remind myself that we are all entitled an opinion.

I agree with Struggling bit & Radical nan we are entitled to our own opinions. I find if you don' agree with left wing views you are shouted down so a lot of us keep quiet.

Lucky says that 'lovely lady..kindness itself' about the person running the village shop.So, of course you shouldn't agree with what she comes out with (if you don't agree with it) but neither do you need to upset her.Village shops can be a lifeline.

Lucky girl after some thought the only answer I could come up with was " Hope you are not on their list. " but in fact I think I would have just looked bewildered.

I was standing in a queue at the airport and had a similar conversation with a smart looking lady who said "We don't want those Muslins coming here." I am horrified at such a remark and I am sure it would never enter her head that somewhere in the world they are saying "We don't want those Christians. "

MissAdventure. 'No one view is totally right or wrong'. We are talking about torture. How can there even be a debate about that?
I don't like the way that people seem to only be able to see politicians as saints or devils. The latter may turn out to be true about Trump (I do think Clinton's continual pointing towards Russia as the cause of anything she considered a problem was horrendous, but Trump seems to be outdoing her horror wise) but the former is not true about Obama. His first step after leaving office was to set up a foundation using the same formula as the Clinton Foundation with hedge fund owners and bankers as trustees.

We live in a democracy so all entitled to their opinion or where we shop. The Palace has hosted many visitors with blood on their hands over the years, so sure it won't phase them!

A village shop...........wow luxury, we have lost ours here and our bus service.......they would have gone sooner if they had known they were not entitled to their own opinions but for the sake of convenience I would have allowed them that privilege.

Why all this fuss about Trump?

What happened to critical thinking, we have the Saudis round for tea, we allow Blair who is responsible for the deaths of millions to walk about freely, we saw Theresa May leave Trump and hot foot it to Turkey to sell fighter jets, and not for very much money either......but Trump is the one person everyone seems happy to pull apart.

We would all do better to campaign against the financial terrorism imposed on all of us by the banks and some anti war action wouldn't go amiss.

What is the point of democracy if it is only for who think the same as us?

Free thought and free expression are worth fighting for even if we don't like the content.