Xenophobia

I agree too Pogs. Both words have become devalued until they are almost meaningless.

Well said POGS
I see that vince cable ( in the DM today) has had a re think on his views Re immigration and thinks the same as most people who voted to leave.

Well said POGS

Greyduster

You are correct to mention that point.

I get tired of the assumption immigration is a problem for white, usually English hence the 'Little Englander' term which is used to insult , Brexiters, right of politics (all who vote Tory), anyone who dares to debate immigration issues, unless it is to speak positively but not honestly.

The use of the words racist/xenophobic are now so widespread and misused they are loosing their meaning, a bit like the use of the word Hero.

GN is now peppered with intended insults using the word Racist/Xenophobe even when none has occurred, the words are the first point of attack, to shut down debate or personally insult another. Hence the words Racist/Xenophic are loosing their meaning and have just morphed into ignorant use of our language. Yet the subject matter remains a serious one obviously.

I posted this on another thread yesterday:-

'The rhetoric may be not to the liking to some posters but having been accused recently of being a Racist Bully myself on Gransnet I am fed up with the ease some Gransnet posters feel free to call anybody who challenges their view Racist/Xenophobic.

Simply calling a poster Racist/Xenophobic is not as clever as saying why you disagree with their comment or proving them wrong, it is tantamount to not having a good enough response because what has been said cannot necessarily be disproved.

It is obvious people will have differing views but sometimes people , not only on Gransnet, will speak as they find.

People will have strong views but calling them Racist/Xenophobic cements the argument that the subject of immigration cannot be , has never been, debated properly for fear of being called Racist/Xenophobic.

The end product of shutting down any voice that does not sit with liberal thinking is now also widely being accepted as being in part a reason for the rise of the 'far right' throughout Europe.

If a poster has has produced a comment that can be disproved then disprove it. If a poster is doing the same as yourself and giving their view then that is their prerogative.'

Sorry for the rant but this is a definite bee in my bonnet and I won't apologise for saying my piece. Speaking about immigration should not be a no go area , it should be an honest debate for the good and bad issues involved. It is an issue that affects ALL the population and it is a folly to assume it is not spoken of throughout ALL communities of whatever background.

What seems to be missed is that other nations/races are xenophobic too.
I once belonged to a forum for black people and many of them hated whites - can't say I blamed them though at times. I think black people have been persecuted more than any other race.

The city I live in has large immigrant - largely Muslim - populations. There was friction last year when an influx of Roma and other Eastern European families were being housed in what the existing Muslim population considered to be "their areas". They patently do not like each other and the tensions are palpable. The Police have special community liaison officers permanently trying to keep a lid on things.

I hope things have changed in the West of Scotland. Sixty years (really!) ago, hockey matches between our school and the nearest Roman Catholic school resulted in mayhem and I hate to think about the rugby matches! We were brought up at home and at church to be suspicious of Catholics and I never met one socially until I went to sit the bursary competition exams at St Andrews. OMG - they were human and had just the same sense of humour as we did! University was a great leveller. However, DS2 had an uncomfortable time when he was at uni in Glasgow and decided to go to a football international at Hampden Park. The opponents weren't even England but the Scottish supporters were still singing 'If you hate the f**** English clap your hands'. So he went to great lengths to conceal his English accent. That was about 25 years ago and I hope things have changed since then. Probably not.

It takes a while, because most foreign immigrants band together ( naturally) when they first come to a country, Polish, Irish, etc.certain areas become known a Little Italy, Little Germany etc ( in the past) and then within about two to three generations, gradually disperse and become part of the huge mix of people that we call the UK.
The areas that are not really seeing this dispersal though are the Asian communities.
This can only be the practice of going to India and Pakistan for brides/husbands( unless anybody else has a better idea?)Thus we know less about Asian people because we don't usually mix with them, or they with us.
I have a good Hindu Indian friend, and I am her only white friend.I don't know any Muslims at all.
The more we are able to mix with other races the less xenophobic we become.
That is why xenophobia/ racism is bandied around as an insult, even to non xenophobic/racist people, who simply want to bring immigration down to acceptable levels.Interestingly, many British Asians also feel the same way, and it is the sheer numbers and not the nationality that matters.

level of dislike decreases. Prejudice decreases

Penstemmon and Iam64, thank you for describing so well the immigrant communities in which I grew up and many of whose characteristics still exist today in many areas.
I was very moved when I read your posts this morning. And ashamed to remember that outside of the community, in my posh, selective grammar school and later very posh uni, I tried to hide where I came from!

Depends what you mean by 'helped'

I am wondering if it is cart and horse. Chicken and egg.
Xenophobia is helped a lot when people actually experience diversity.

I, on the other hand, live in one of the most diverse areas outside of London. I now don't notice different races, unless something unusual makes them stand out. But visitors from less diverse communities do notice and comment, especially the closet xenophobe.

I probably live in one of the least diversive areas of the country.
It does not help these areas to become less xenophobic, and for that matter, probably racist.
It is rare to see a person from another country, when out and about. Hence I would hazard a guess that most local people dont see one or meet one from one week to the next.

If they stay there, they are not mixing with other people around the country.

Exactly Penstemon.
Channel 4 news yesterday had a piece about Cheetham Hill, a suburb of Manchester which has always been somewhere new immigrants to the UK tended to set up home. The news article was in response to the recent debate about parts of the UK being home to certain communities to the exclusion of others. The reporter started by talking about 'the failure of multi culturalism'.
My own feeling was he could have reported from a less friendly, vibrant and mixed community than Cheetham Hill if he'd wanted to paint a miserable, worrying image of the UK.

It was home to Irish and Jewish families particularly, during the 19th century. The Irish came to avoid starvation, the Jews to avoid the pogroms in Eastern Europe. Local history confirms the two communities helped each other. On Friday, the Irish families would keep the fires going in Jewish homes so that on return from synagogue there would be warmth and hot food ready without the Jewish families breaking their own traditions. Local synagogues and churches are a wealth of interesting and honestly, uplifting, information about the ways in which these two poverty stricken communities helped each other.
I must have my Pollyanna hat on again but it's important to remember how much those in need often rally to help each other. Thats a feature in the help for refugee communities here in the town i live in.

Very well said, Penstemmon.

I do not agree with faith based schools of any kind. I think they are divisive. However lack of faith schools alone will not change the perniciousness of xenophobia/racism.That takes a whole community and a strong lead from leaders/government.

All 'immigrant' communities will tend to congregate in one or two areas. Often because of work opportunities and also because people emigrating will seek out a relative or friend from 'home' to help them settle into their new home area. I know when my grandparents settled in Wimbledon other immigrants form 'home' contacted them when they arrived, asked if it was a nice place to live etc. and so a small community grew!

Sorry! I don't really understand the point you're making.

And I believe who choose a church school for their children would not sgree

its taught from families,the hatred of football teams and religions and colour,the religion isn't the problem it once was in the West of Scotland but there are still what my husband calls knuckle draggers who spout bile at football matches ...every week .and GET AWAY WITH IT,There has been an effort to curtail it with the "OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOUR ACT" which has had these knuckle draggers complaining that its their right to sing offensive songs and use foul language at matches oh and they want alcohol allowed back too .We can only hope they dont succeed as life after an old firm game is no street party now but was much much worse before the act and the alcohol ban.As to seperate schools ,in Scotland 100 or more years ago there was a need for them ,nowadays I believe a lot of us would prefer to see our kids all go through the same gates to school and keep religion for home and church

All nations are probably similar in that regard BlueBelle, but all I can do is guess.

Ankers go to the Spanish coast and watch all the Brits living together having their English breakfast in their English bars while they watch the English Channel on Tv Let's not call the kettle black

It depends how you have come to acquire this knowledge of behaviours you profess not to like. If it is after meeting a range of people from that nation or group, then it is your right not to like their custom/manners/beliefs. We live in a free country.
If, however, it is based on stereotypes and not on direct experience or knowledge, then it is xenophobia.

Much has been said about education reducing fear of others and, hence, xenophobia. Within this concept can be placed the learning of a modern language other than our native one, something that is sadly on the decline in the UK. There are no xenophobic linguists, IMHO.
Does anyone on GN know of one?

It's very different to dislike someone who has done you wrong or are your rival as in a football club there is a reason for the dislike or distrust ( they might beat you again) There could often even be a historical reason for dislike of other areas . centuries ago there was bad feeling between my town and the next nearby one over a fishing war there is still banter between the towns, however when there is no real reason then it becomes racism or xenophobia A needless hatred which grows and grows for no real solid reason
We have to bring our children up to be more open hearted than our generation and the ones before We need to mix, to learn, to accept, Fear and ignorance is no excuse nowadays we have to accept anyone unless they do us harm

What behaviours are you referring too Tricia ? there are good and bad in all peoples, all religions, all countries disliking a bad action doesn't make you xenerphobic disliking a whole race or whole country because of some people actions does