millenials can't afford houses because they're brunching (or not)

As I haven't gone door to door to enquire, I can't answer you that notanan. I merely asked the question. BTW in many W European countries it is the norm to rent rather than own property.

With interest rates for mortgages at an all time low, young people now may be at an advantage, once they have managed to get one. We had to pay huge interest on our mortgages.

Don't minimise our struggles please. It was difficult for our generation to get started too, no matter what the media might say. Yes, I didn't have to pay tuition fees for university although it was very very difficult to get the grades to get a place. And I was one of the lucky ones not forced to leave school and get a job, as my father believed in educating girls unlike many of his generation. BUT we did have to pay tuition fees for all 4 of our children!! To do this, DH and I both had a full time plus a part time job.

Things are easier for us now. Do we not deserve it?

*BTW in many W European countries it is the norm to rent rather than own property.*…………….where renting is more secure….

you're missing the point MASSIVELY. It's not that people can't own a home now, its that they can't have any sort of secure /permanant home that they can make a "home", rented or otherwise. And it's not because they don't know how to work hard or save. It's because what used to be achievable goals, al beit requiring some shorter term hard work or sacrifice, are now completely off the table for most.

A low interest rate is of absolutely no help if salaries are 10 times less than house prices or less. It's just not attainable for most.. no matter how hard you work.

saying "but we worked hard for our home, have you tried saving?" to people who can't realistically hope for a secure home no matter how hard they work or save, how do you expect that to be received?

I would be interested to see facts to back up your statement that most younger people cannot afford to buy a house and that house prices are 10 times salaries everywhere notanan.

Some areas are more expensive than others so I wonder which part of the country you live in; not everywhere is as expensive as the south-east.

Eg 2 bedroomed flats start from under £90,000 not far from DS, deposit £3,500 + 20% Help to buy, requiring a mortgage of £52,500 - is that 10x average salary?

yeah well I live in commutable distance to towns with employment prospects, I guess all of the lazy sods who can't buy round here should just quit their jobs so they can move somewhere cheaper huh?

A two bedroom house in the "bad" area of town is 13 times our combined annual salary..

Where is this, notanan? You've said nowhere near London. Similar houses in the "bad" area of my town - by no means a dump, by the way, and from where many people commute to Leeds or Manchester - are currently on offer for around £60,000.

Why are you so aggressive, by the way?

Or rather, apologies, I should say - why are your posts so aggressive?

Why are you so aggressive, by the way?

Me? I'm not the one on here saying how people who've got a raw deal and struggle to build a home because must deserve it because they have phones or bought a coffee or something and it can't possibly be because opportunities have narrowed and social mobility is less likely now than at other times no matter how hard you try.

I think people buying these lovely new flats and houses I mentioned would be very upset to be told it was in a 'bad part of town'.

Do you live in Sydney, notanan?
The link in the OP is referring to Sydney, and yes, it is very expensive.
Maggiemaybe I agree
Your posts are so full of anger and bitterness, notanan, it would seem that life has given you a raw deal, I am sorry that you cannot feel positive or happy.

no, I was lucky, and have enough insight and empathy to realise that I don't have what I have just because I worked hard and was sensible

I worked hard and was sensible at a time when that actually could get you somewhere

What really is bitter is looking at people who have less and declaring that they must deserve less.

Skewed thinking; no-one thinks they deserve less than we had at all!
We had less because we were saving for a deposit for a house!

The point is that some think they should have the coffees, the holidays and be able to have a house. We knew that it wasn't possible to have it all, we realised that we had to sacrifice either the good times or the home we wanted to buy.

I would still like to know where houses in a bad part of which town are 13x average salaries.

The point is that some think they should have the coffees, the holidays and be able to have a house. We knew that it wasn't possible to have it all, we realised that we had to sacrifice either the good times or the home we wanted to buy.

No, it's the other way around: no amount of cutting back on coffees or holidays will get many people a decent home these days.

Making sacrifices when it's actually getting you somewhere isn't really a hardship - it's quite rewardable and gratifying..

It's not just about cutting back & working hard, that's only part of the formula, the opportunities have to be here too

I said 13 times our household salary, lots of working households are on less than average salary - that's what average means.

South, not home counties.

We're a bit older than many parents in DDs school, we got in there when it was doable, if we were starting out now we'ld have no hope. Most young families we know rent, and not in the secure w european way. A lot are "hidden homeless" even though they're professionals.

Could people on less than average salaries afford homes in the past?

I will agree that we need more decent affordable social housing.

However, I will say that the majority of young people I know who are DD's peer group have bought property on a mortgage (apart from her, who is a 'bruncher' - referring back to the OP).

But it is not the fault of the people who bought their houses then that house prices now have gone up everywhere and skyrocketed in some places

Some factors are - a population increase from 52.2 million in 1960 to 64.88 in 2016 - that is over a quarter as many people needing housed as before. A fraction of that is incomers, a larger proportion is natural increase.

The shrinkage of local authority housing due to the right-to buy and the embargo on using that money to build more, combined with a change of policy towards giving young single people tenancies.

A change from newly married couples accepting that they might have to live with parents for a while and wanting a home of their own at once - made more possible by the next factor.

The acceptance by mortgage lenders that a young married woman was on the pill and would not be falling pregnant immediately, so they could take the risk of lending on her income as well as her husband's. This helped them to start to buy, but had the inintended effect of meaning that more people were bidding for the same property, which raised the selling price.

The decision by mortgage lenders to lend, not 2 1/2 or three times income, but increasingly more and more, thus ioncreasing their own income and injecting more imaginery money into the markets. Naturally, borrowers used the available money to bid a bit higher for the property they wanted, so house prices rose again.

All of this causing a spiral rising ever higher, and leaving many people behind.

How to fix it? I have no idea. Build more starter homes to buy at affordable prices, and more renting accomodation in pleasant areas where "council house" is not a term of abuse?

Jalima you seem determined to deny that there are any extra hurdles for people starting out nowadays

We weren't on less than average salary when we bought, back then it was much easier to pick up over time in my field, DH did a second job in retail which you could walk in off the street and do, nowadays there can be 100s of applicants for a retail post and most are zero hours and far less flexible. Saving was doable, our rent was more managable for one, we had a two bedroom flat near work (so minimal travel costs) and were still able to save for a deposit - the rent in that area is now through the roof! We wouldn't be able to rent there now as an average young couple, all circumstances of that time. And we did cut back and save too BUT the scope for working hard and saving and it actually getting you somewhere was there if that was what you wanted to do we also managed to get a "fixer-upper" cheap and it was more of a buyers market.

No, it's not the fault of people who did buy in the past, but that's no reason to have no sympathy for what it is like for people starting off right now and to blame them and be smug about it.

It's a terrible time to be young, and it's not because young people these days can't "go without", they're going without so much already.

and to blame them and be smug about it.
I am not being smug as you call it

I pointed out that you must live in a very, very expensive part of the country and that purchasing not that far away from my family is certainly more affordable than in your area.

I also have another DC who lives in a very expensive area of the world and it most certainly is not 'doable' but that is her choice; she could do the same job in a different, much cheaper area and I do see the 'why should we bother to save when we can rent and go out and enjoy ourselves' attitude.
And I did say that, when we pop our clogs, if we have not had to sell our house to pay for care, they will get enough for a deposit for a property.

It's a terrible time to be young, and it's not because young people these days can't "go without", they're going without so much already.
And just because some young people are having a struggle, it does not follow that all young people are having a struggle, as epitomised by the young mums delivering their offspring to the local school in their 4x4s from their houses much larger than mine.

I also pointed out that, throughout the ages, some people have struggled and never earned enough to buy property whilst others have.

Exactly Jalima, depending on their jobs, both in the past and now, many young couples CAN get on the first rung of the housing ladder.All depends on where you live and what salaries you have.
Expectations are higher these days though, than they used to be.For a single person (both in the past and now) owning a house is very difficult.

expectations are higher these days? such as?

There is a tendency on Gransnet for people to relate their own situation as if it applies to the majority of the population. Just because somebody has a relative, friend or acquaintance who has a good income but spends their money on holidays and other non-essentials, that does not make them typical.

In the I today it was reported that the average rent in the London area is now more than 50% of average earnings. That is a heck of a lot of money, when you consider that other expenses - like transport, insurances, possibly childcare costs, energy and water bills, council tax, food, clothing, etc. - have to come out of the remainder. I would imagine that other cities like Birmingham, Manchester and Brighton have also seen rents increasing.

Not all adult children will have the benefit of inheriting enough money for, or to help towards, a deposit, and families who don't own a property are unlikely to be have significant amounts of money to bequeath. The 2008-2010 figures of the Office for National Statistics show that, of those 1.6 million beneficiaries who receive at least £1,000, half were left less than 10,000. Only one out of ten received more than £125,000. As would be expected, rates of inheritance were higher for individuals living in households which already had the highest levels of wealth.

When professional people - such as teachers, engineers, paramedics and nurses - find themselves, perhaps in their late 20's and early 30's, having to share a house with several other people, I can't see how it can be said that "expectations are higher". I think most younger people would just like somewhere to live that isn't costing them an arm and a leg and which gives them some degree of comfort, security, privacy and autonomy. I doubt that the majority of people would choose to rent if they could possibly afford to buy - because rental accommodation these days is often sub-standard, very expensive and insecure.

notanan do you think it was different for us in the 70's our first flat was 12 times our combined annual salary ,we coulldn't afford carpet for our hall for over 2 years and the furniture in our bedrooms was homemade by my husband .It wasn't all sunshine and roses and it probably never has been for MOST people ...difference is back then the interest rate was 16% .We rented for 8 years while we raised a deposit had NO holidays ,lived on toasted chees and on a good week my other half got 20pence for the pub to buy a couple of pints ..That wasn't the beginning of the last century it was 40 years ago.So believe me IF you want that house badly enough ...you'll find a way to get it.The other difference between then and now is WE didn't feel we were being hard done by ,our parents had come through a war and they knew how hard life can really be ,so they thought WE had it easy ....lol

I think most younger people would just like somewhere to live that isn't costing them an arm and a leg and which gives them some degree of comfort, security, privacy and autonomy

That's exactly it, nail on the head there

the posters quoting how they went without to own their own secure home are showing how little they appreciate what it's like for younger people these days, who can't even rent their own place with any degree of security or privacy

Expectations are not higher when nowadays you can't even expect to rent a modest home if you don't have the backing of a well to do home owner because they income threshold estate agents ask for is so high and they can turn professionals away due to demand.

I'm not talking about 18 year olds looking to have a forever home straight away, it's professionals in their 30s working hard and getting nowhere, not even able to rent somewhere permanant-ish where they can hang up a family photo or paint their kids room.

Opportunities DO wax and wane, and right now is a tough time to try to build a life/home. If I hadn't got my home in the last window of opportunity when I was in my 20s and times were VERY different, I too would struggle to even rent somewhere now.

We weren't better savers back when it was doable, we were savers saving in a time when there was a bit of social mobility and saving and working hard could improve your situation.