Drunken sex

The £50,000 reward for information that would help Ched Evans has to raise concerns about the validity of the evidence. The precedent set if allowing evidence about the complainants alleged sexual behaviour seems to set the approach to rape in the courts back fifty years.
I don't feel sorry for Ched Evans girlfriend, or for him, my sympathy goes to the young woman who made the complaint.
And, some people ask why victims of sexual harassment or assault don't come forward. That question was asked on another thread in relation to the women who recently alleged historical sexual assault or harassment by Mr Trump.

The woman stated that she believed her drink had been spiked and that might have resulted in her remembering nothing.
A witness stated that the woman would often recall nothing from the night before, although she was not drunk.
The witness has very likely received a large sum of money from the accused or from someone close to him.
How can that possibly not be relevant??

annsixty do you really believe what you posted?

This case and the verdict are extremely disturbing.

Even if it was not 'rape' who would want to spend the rest of their life with a man like that?

Because one has sex with one man in a hotel room does not mean that one wants to have sex with another one who comes into the room later, with other people looking in through the window.

it would have to be implied she was not raped but consent was assumed even though not verbal.

Surely you're not serious, annsixty?

Never assume anything.

If as reported she had consensual sex with another man immediately before having sex with Evans in the same room, it would have to be implied she was not raped but consent was assumed even though not verbal. How often is the question asked and answered?

Absolutely! £50,000 is an awful lot of money (not for a successful footballer or his girlfriend, obviously)

A life-changing amount for some though.

The judge allowed the past history of a complainant to be part of the evidence, which is highly unusual, apparently.
It has set a precedent, I think, as it is normally illegal, but when this case went to Appeal, the three Appeal court judges said this evidence should be allowed. That is when Evans's girlfriend started offering a £50,000 reward for any witnesses to come forward who may have known the girl.

A very disturbing case and one that leaves a lot of questions to be answered, rather than a result.

The fact that she can remember nothing at all is extremely disturbing too, as is the fact that the 'witnesses' (rewarded) who came forward claimed that she said the same thing.
Coincidence or not?

IO don't feel sorry for Evans's girlfriend; there will always be a suspicion that the £50,000 reward she or her father offered for any 'witnesses' to come forward resulted in an unsafe verdict in my opinion.
This bribe should have been admissible as evidence if it was not.
I hope that the 'witnesses' are real ones and have not perjured themselves.

If I had been on the jury I would now be very angry that I had not been presented with the full facts, the 'reward' (or bribe) aspect is very disturbing indeed.

Deedaa individuals do have a personal responsibility to be alert to their own safety and putting oneself in a risky situation. However individuals also have a responsibility to behave within the law and the spirit of the law. To deliberately target a (foolish?) woman to have sex with because you know she is too drunk the take responsibility for her actions is rape in my book.

If person deliberately waited for elderly people , at a cash machines etc. because they knew they had a better chance of nicking their money we would not blame the elderly person for being robbed because they were slower at putting money away!

Rape or not, the person I feel sorry for is Evans's girlfriend. He had sex with another girl, consensual or not. If I were her, I'd be off!

Well call me a dinosaur but in my young day we were well aware that getting paralytic was not a good idea as you never knew what it would lead to. We also tended to go everywhere in pairs and were very careful with men we didn't know.

grannyA I think most people are in the dark about this proving consent business.If both people are even a bit drunk, and go back to where one of them lives and start kissing and canoodling ( being polite here) does the man have to say ' please say that you agree to have sex with me'? It used to be the case, that in that scenario, if the woman said, stop! Or no! And the man didn't stop, that it was rape, but this having to give verbal consent business......well, it ain't gonna happen surely?

I find the whole episode sad and sordid, but I am old fashioned.

Neither of them have come out of this situation with flying colours.

These cases are always difficult, but the suggestion that she enjoyed sex should be a factor in the verdict is worrying.

The bribe information should have been admissible I think as it calls into question the integrity of the witnesses - the jury needs to know that.

Even IF someone heard noises that they interpreted as 2 people enjoying sex ..the fact that the woman concerned was not in a state to give consent/ may have been partly unconscious might not preclude her making instinctive noises which may not have been a sign of enjoyment.

It is also horrendous that something a woman may have said during consensual /conscious passionate sex can be used to infer she is happy to have sex with anyone and is 'easy'! That would make a good many of us at risk of not being believed if we had the dreadful misfortune to be sexually assaulted.

What a farce of a trial...

From today's Telegraph, Welshwife:

Ched Evans' fiancée offered a key witness in his rape trial a £50,000 "bribe" for evidence to clear him, it can now be revealed. Natasha Massey, 27, sent a Facebook message about the huge cash reward to hotel receptionist Gavin Burrough - and signed it with a kiss.Prosecuting barrister Simon Medland QC said the "subtle and repeated" five-figure sum was "akin to a bribe". The jury at Evans' retrial was not told about the Facebook messages after the judge ruled them inadmissible.

The £50,000 was also offered on Evans' website to anyone coming forward with information to clear his name.

I saw somewhere that the girlfriend of Evans offered 50K for evidence and these other witnesses were actively sought. I hope that they were really checked out for ' integrity' as it were - would be easy to embroider a story to share in 50K - but that is just cynical me!
Not good publicity for any of them.

I think this case is unusual. The judge allowed the past history of a complainant to be part of the evidence, which is highly unusual, apparently. That allowed the evidence that the complainant had apparently told a previous suitor to "f.. me harder". Maybe the Jury took that suggestion if enjoyment of sex as a factor of her personality that may have led indirectly to what subsequently happened to her

However, I think the key bit of evidence wasn't the suggestion of promiscuity, but the fact that the Receptionist heard noises of "enjoyment" emanating from the hotel bedroom.

So: enjoyment of sex=consent. Not rape.

Another thing: in the Western Mail today there's a summary of the events of the evening. In it, Ched Evans implied that he withdrew from the complainant as guilt took hold. I'm not sure if that means he penetrated her but did not ejaculate. So, yes, there was sex but not the full act so to speak. So maybe not quite "rape"? And she had already had consensus sex with Ched's mate.

Not sure I'm making sense. .

I remember that case, Maggie, it was all over the news at the time! Wasn't skiing down a cliff with a rose between the teeth involved? Or was that all in her mind?

(don't worry you don't have to answer - if I can be bothered I'll google!)

JessM, there was the infamous "manacled Mormon" case in the 1970s. Joyce McKinney was convicted of indecent assault under the law of the time, but her victim alleged that she raped him. I had to google the case to find Joyce McKinney's name and she's certainly had a colourful life since, but I won't divert the thread by going into it!

I do not think, in the current case in the news, that the men involved were so drunk they did not know what they were doing. I personally think it probably was rape, i.e. deliberately seeking & having sex with a person too drunk (or druggged) to give consent/ to be aware what was happening.
A man is totally responsible for what he does with his penis and this continual attempt to blame women for being raped is just plain wrong!