Prams or wheelchairs ?

I'm not suggesting this would be practical or even possible all the time as I know some prams are monstrous but her toddler wasn't sleeping so she'd only need to pop him on the seat next to her and collapse the buggy.homemedicalequipmentandsupply.com/Medical Equipments such as wheel chaires are good to use s original.

I've been a wheelchair user for 2 years now. Having worked in childcare for the previous 30 years I spent many of those years pushing a buggy/pram around. I guess I expected people to behave as I did for those years and have respect for wheelchair users, how wrong I was, I must have been wearing blinkers all that time. Even on a pre-booked seat on a train I needed the help of the guard in order to use the wheelchair space, my carer couldn't sit with me even then because the woman in his seat refused to move. People rush ahead of me to access the space in front of me especially in shops and I usually have to wait 2 or 3 goes to use a lift. I appreciate that buggies have limited choice and I do make excuses for the able bodied who fill lifts, they may have breathing/heart problems I can't see, but there are lots of these people around now. My DH is less patient and understanding and can get very vocal.
There are many occasions that I'm left sitting like a second class citizen in tears by the sheer ignorance of others, I have no choice or control. There are lots of places I now don't go because I'm made to feel less than human by these selfish, grinning harridans who are raising equally selfish children.

oh I worry right enough its an occupational hazard round here

not just with little bus companies either

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/7155620.stm

don't want loose children floating round my buses

Meanwhile...

...I ventured over to the dark side and on Mumsnet, the overwhelming opinion on this subject is you are being unreasonable not to fold down your pushchair or even getting off the bus. On the matter of safety, the train of thought is that if the brakes are on the pushchair, then they don't worry because the chances of a bus - one of the largest vehicles on the road - coming off the worst in an accident isn't worth worrying about. There's also a general feeling that taking a double buggy on a bus is unreasonable.

My faith in humanity is restored!

john it's my understanding that since January 2016, all single-decker buses with 22 seats or more need to be compliant with schedules 1 and 2 of the Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000 (PSVAR). Double deckers have to be compliant by January 2017. The PSVAR 2000 will be fully implemented by 2020.

In addition to a wheelchair space, buses must have at least 4 priority seats (non-tipping) for disabled passengers. Hand rails to assist disabled people are also compulsory and the space for a wheelchair should have suitable safety provisions. The regulations do specify the maximum size of the wheelchair covered, although bus companies do have the discretion to allow larger wheelchairs (as well as small motor scooters).

I don't know the latest legislation on seat belts or child restraints for children. The last thing I heard was the government could not identify a suitable way to implement any legislation to make it safer for children on buses. As far as I'm aware, bus companies are required to make all passengers over 14 aware that they should use the seatbelts provided, but drivers were not required to enforce this.

Maybe someone else knows what provisions are in place or under discussion for making buses safer for children and babies?

I don't want to give the impression the safety of certain passengers is more important than others. I'm just sharing my limited knowledge and as far as I'm concerned, the whole subject is about good manners and empathy.

As many of you say " when my children were little" actually I don't remember any wheelchairs able to get on buses when my children were little.

spangles
1. can I draw your attention to the penultimate paragraphin my original post --- re villages

2. Wheelchair users are a visible target for empathy but what about those with no obvious signs.

I have a disability, I am registered as an occasional wheelchair user. My condition isn't too bad now but it will become so, eventually. If you saw me you wouldn't know, so I'm guessing no empathy for me

How about all the people with arterial fibrillation, Spondylosis or many other debilitating conditions. Those who need to be seated ASAP They won't appear on the radar either

Like many others I don't want empathy I want equality

The equalities act 2010 allows for that

Somewhat flippant I'll grant you but I would want an equal chance so get wet on a bad rainy day rather than send you on a guilt trip

If you stood back for me I'd be horrified and to some extent I'd feel patronised

but as I'm most walking wounded most of the time you wouldn't get the chance

And all that doesn't even begin to cover those who are in the next village who are invisible until you round the last bend

Like everyone else they have to take their turn and most would not want it any other way

Gillybob

how would you transport a child in a private motor car

we have to adhere to the same regulations. For thew moment service buses do not

and a good thing to Statistically children in moving vehicles on a parent knee are more at risk than those who occupy a seat

Quote from HMG

New regulations which came into force in September 2006 as a result of an EU Directive changed the rules for buses and coaches by requiring that seat belts or child restraints must be used by seated occupants aged three years and above in all moving buses and coaches where they are available. It also requires passengers to be informed that seat belt wearing is mandatory.

Spangles presumably you live in a city?

Regardless of legalities surely it is just a question of empathy? Recently when catching a bus from the small city to our town we were near the front of the queue and behind us were both a wheelchair and pushchair. We stepped back and let them both on before us, I assume that is normal behaviour round here as no one objected and all seemed to feel as we did. I don't remember how they were accommodated but they were. Forget equality just be empathetic.

Our local buses say that wheelchairs must not be electric (ie no scooters) and must be pushed onto and off the bus.

I'm not sure about what you mean johnofwhixall when you say,

^so where do you SAFELY seat an undersized child that has been removed from a buggy? or do we expect all parents of little children to carry booster seats?

How would you feel if a stored buggy toppled over and hurt you?^

Not sure what you would class as "an undersized child" but most children do not travel around in buggys after the age of 3 anyway. They would almost always be sitting on their parents knee or else sitting on the seat (often kneeling) looking out of the window anyway. So what difference would that make?

Buggy's, suitcases, shopping bags etc. have always been taken onto buses. I am not aware of any serious incidents where someone has been crushed by a toppling buggy, although I don't doubt you know of many cases.

Not entirely true
I am not required to run disabled access buses by any legislation

Food for thought
I'm A bus operator if it's designated a wheelchair space then the driver can insist but if it's shared space Wheelchair / buggy / and sometimes bikes then first come first served - when the bus is full its full

Where do you SAFELY store folded buggy on a CROWDED bus?
Currently seat belts are not compulsory on service buses but its coming soon

so where do you SAFELY seat an undersized child that has been removed from a buggy? or do we expect all parents of little children to carry booster seats?

How would you feel if a stored buggy toppled over and hurt you?

What do you do on a rainy day if someone with walking impairment wants to travel and the bus its full?
What do you do with their walking aid - some are enormous?
How do you expect a driver to discriminate between the need of walking impaired and wheelchair users?
Being the only operator for the villages Stowage of goods is always a problem
Wheelchair users often ask to be treated equally not specially and if they can't board they can't board and tats all there is to it

ethel buses are required by law to have space for at least one wheelchair. They are not required to have floor space for buggies, shopping trollies or suitcases, etc. Removing a child from a buggy may be inconvenient, but it is not likely to be as inconvenient as it would be for a wheelchair user who can't get on the bus. Surely people in wheelchairs should surely have priority in the spaces provided for them?

I live near a residential home for blind people and several have other disabilities and are in wheelchairs. Fees would eat up most of their benefits. Disabled access buses give people independence.

where I live there are not too many busses either, yet I have never seen any wheelchairs on a bus and I live near a main bus stop, all disabled use taxis as they have an allowance. This is northumberland so maybe we are behind the times.

The problem is, ethelbags we don't all live in London. Many of us live in other parts of the country where (believe it or not) buses are often as rare as hens teeth. Not being allowed on a bus because a couple of mums refused to fold their buggies (I mean why should they?) usually meant either a VERY long walk home (with my poor dad pushing my mum) or waiting a long time for another bus.

While I agree that the girls sound selfish, I probably would not have known how to fold DGD buggy, can I ask how does making the wheelchair a priority give the users equality as someone says?
If you are in a queue then the wheelchair user takes his turn as do everyone else, If trying to get on a bus like in th OP then if there had been no buggy one the bus then he would have got on. The buggy girls were on first - no argument. As someone else says the London busses are quite frequent so the wheelchair would have got another quickly.
I find that giving priority to one sector of society causes inequality not equality.

This has certainly been an interesting debate. In my view there is good and bad in every generation ( I have met a fair few difficult pensioners) but I do think that many of today's Mums have a sense of entitlement that we simply didn't ( wouldn't dare!) have! And don't get me started on the Mums - and buggies- in my local coffee shop.......

I used three prams for each of my two children, a hard bodied fully sprung bouncy big pram for local walks to shops, park etc, a Mama's and Papa's pushchair and then a MacLaren buggy both of which folded down but the MacLaren was what they called an umbrella design, folded with one hand. It went on buses, trains, in the car, everywhere and took up next to no space while baby/child sat on my knee, no problem.

My ED however, had a giant Silver Cross combo, took up loads of room and never got put down on buses. I did advise her to get a buggy as DGS got older but to no avail. She did tell me it was faulty with second pregnancy to get a new pram out of me until I got in touch with a shop which could fix it for a snippet of the price and then suddenly it was ok again. So used again for second son.

I am now a disabled motility scooter rider, ride my scooter locally and would be able to go round town in it too but I don't want to be left at a bus stop in favour of prams. I have problems in the water works department so it is important to get home at times, as soon as I can, and the dread of not getting on a bus when I need the toilet is not a thought I want to have really. I have enough problems. So I tend not to venture into town now as I can't get round due to my breathlessness and I can't take my scooter neither. Plus, as I have never tried, I am a bit embarrassed by using it other than locally to be honest.

I am just thankful that I can manage without having to use buses at the moment but dread the time that maybe I will need to use them in the future - I walk with a stick & find getting off buses difficult if they aren't lowered to be nearer kerb - I pray I won't need a wheelchair it all sounds like a nightmare using public transport.

I do get fed up with the priority given to Mothers & babies now with them seeming to think it's their right to have priority - besides buses being taken over by pushchairs it's Parent & Child parking spaces nearer shops than Disabled spaces - I know that's not what this post is about but I think it's all part of the same sense of entitlement of many of the young parents (Mums in particular)

My oh was a bus driver policy was you could ask pram user to fold it but couldn't insist he says most didn't need to be asked they did it he held many a baby while they did this and he always put ramp down says he didn't need to be asked there is good and bad people everywhere

The crux of the matter is the pushchair users who don't fold them up before getting on the bus. This is despite the manufacturers making a big deal about how easy it is to do just this. Some if not all of can be folded down with one hand as the mechanism is single handed. But of course, the pushchairs are often heavier now because of all terrain fashion and all the accessories they can have (used or not).

Years ago I can remember mothers folding their pushchairs as the bus approached and they were always grateful if someone helped by carrying it on for them and putting in the luggage area.

Nobody questioned the safety of babies on laps and this is long after seatbelts in cars became law. Anyone ever heard of a baby on someone's lap being injured on a bus? Now though, pushchair users can wheel it right on and off the bus and don't even think about folding the pushchair.

So I do think the wheelchair user has priority because unlike pushchair users, they don't have a choice.

That said, maybe some research into the need for more space for pushchair users, walker/rollator users and wheelchair users. It sounds like there's more demand for space than predicted. It would be quite simple to install more flip down seating than we see at the moment. We want more people to use public transport, so it should be an easy option.

Bring back conductors! It's hard for the driver to do everything. With conductors buses wouldn't have to wait ages at stops to collect the money and there would be less
vandalism

All I can conclude is that the troublesome pushchair users are not kind,thoughtful MN users!

What I find really surprising is how practically everyone on this thread says that a wheelchair user should take priority over a pushchair. I totally agree with this. So why is it,that where I live,whenever there is a wheelchair user needing to get on the bus where there are already pushchairs,without exception,there is always an argument,with the pushchair user refusing point-blank to fold it down? Not only that,they are usually rude and aggressive with it too. The driver seems powerless to intervene,and inevitably the poor wheelchair user gets left behind as the bus drives off.

I never ever got on a bus with my babies, the pushchair was a big Silver Cross one and did not fold to a manageable size. I walked everywhere, first with the big pram with the toddler on the seat, and later with the pushchair. I had to walk two and a half miles to the baby clinic, then it was uphill all the way home, I lost all the baby weight within a few weeks.

I wonder if there's a safety issue here for babies on an adult's knee. Strapped into a buggy, they must be safer if the bus stops suddenly. Also, while the buggy is being folded and unfolded, what does the mother do with the baby? Hand it to the person in the wheelchair or a stranger on the bus? Asking someone else to sort the buggy out is a non starter. They are only easy if you know how. I don't know what the answer is for wheelchair users but I'm willing to bet no driver would ask a wheelchair user to make way for a baby.