Has Germany now changed? And France? And possibly Belgium?

Sounds good. And that you feel a sense of freedom from questions. And nice that you feel at "home" in Belgium.

Perhaps a 'lighter' angle on the topic. I am an Italian citizen (two Italian parents) but have never lived in Italy. In fact I have never not been an expat. I am at present living in Ghana but our 'base' is Brussels. This is where we come on holiday, for admin stuff, and between postings. It is in a sense 'home'. I landed here this morning, and was delighted to find that the new direct train line between the airport and my home is now operational. Lots of reassuring security at the airport. This is the one place in the world where I feel really comfortable...nobody bats an eyelid or says 'Oh you have a foreign name' or 'Why do you speak English with an English accent?' Or 'why isn't Italian your first language?' Or 'why didn't you teach your kids Italian?' There are so many people 'like me' who don't really find it easy to answer the 'where are you from?' question. the guys fixing the lifts in our apartment block are Polish, my concierge is Portuguese, the customer service guy who remotely fixed my landline this morning sounded Moroccan, the people at the corner shop are from Iran. I love it here.

obieone - the french and smaller families - imo the town dwellers are becoming materialistic like everyone else in the world. The country dwellers can't afford it.

Lillie - your notaire's comments are the same as those of an elderly frenchman I was chatting to in our early days here in a DIY place. I asked him (naively I suppose) how the french regarded the british immigrants. He replied, more or less, no problem, its the maghrebs who cause trouble.
They're much more open about expressing prejudice here. ?Different laws?

Apologies. My second sentence doesnt make much sense. I was constructing it, but although I gave up on one aspect of it, I didnt delete it properly, so please ignore.

Germany - that is what I couldn't understand deMichael and others.
They seem to require skilled workers now because of the ages of the population is relatively old. Looks to me like a lot of babies were born after the war years, but not as many since.

I have found this link
www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/for-qualified-professionals/working/prospects/a-country-of-immigration
which helps me understand the situation better.

The situation in France does indeed seem to be quite different.
Anyone like to say why the french prefer small families?

deMichael - Prussia- now that was a long time ago.

Quote: 'Let me put it my way; I would like to live my life like in times that have gone by.'

to hope to go back to live your life as it was pre WW2 is really not realistic, is it? Here near the French Eastern border, and in the Swiss Canton of Neuchâtel which was Prussian ruled until 1848 - Prussians are sadly not remembered with fond memories, I have to tell you.

Let me please start my comment with the statement; I'm a bearer of a German passport in difference to the fact I'm born and raised as a Prussian which makes a great difference.
Yes it's true Germany's economy ows a lot to the foreign worker who came for a stay of 5-7yrs from Greece, Italy, Turkey a.s.o. They all got paid on the German tariffication means the same as the Germans got paid. I don't want to mention the fringe benefits they received. The majority of jobs they were involed in didn't require any language ability ( show me and I learn it!) means nearly any member of the first generation that came here does't speak our language ( as far as it concerns the Turkish people). And when I say this than I talk about the time the English industry had its peak during the last century.
The situation of today is totally different cos neither the English nor the German economy and industry can do with unskilled staff. No, with that imigration program that's been set up by our government various problems for each individual are been predestined. ( The young and unmarried generation in special!) I keep an eye on that Brexit the Brits have voted for. The UK is a channel away from the Continent and the situation differs completely.
Let me put it my way; I would like to live my life like in times that have gone by.

Interesting granjura. That word "integration" is soo difficult to define.

And add racial prejudice to that list Mamie. When we bought our property in France the notaire said "We don't mind you Brits coming to settle in France, but not our African friends." My husband din't know where to look he felt so embarrassed.
And this was from a man working for the French government.

Despite those generous child allowances in France, and much better childcare facilities than in the UK- most French families remain small. France does have an ageing population- with huge parts in the centre which are practically abandonned, bar Brits, Germans, Dutch and Swiss- and some French families coming back for holidays to the house they've inherited from parents.

Here in Switzerland immigrants tend to integrate well, as well as keep their cultural centres and friendships. And I am sorry to say, it is the British and American expats, concentrated in Zurich, Zug and Geneva area- who tend to integrate the least- not learn the language, attend their own clubs and activities, their own Churches- and this for many over decades. I take no pleasure in saying this.

No Lillie, the policy of benefits for large families goes back generations. I have friends who were able to retire early because they had more than two children.
As Tricia says, you have to understand France's colonial history. Many of the young radicalised men responsible for recent attacks are French nationals whose families came from former colonies in North Africa and have lived here for generations. Poverty, social exclusion and alienation are huge factors.

Is France not giving lots of incentives to French nationals to produce more babies so they can restock their workforce with their own home grown people? I have a French friend who is on her 4th baby because they get so many more hand outs and concessions the more children they have. It sounds like a deliberate ploy to look after their own without the need for immigrants in the workforce and who can blame them?

We live in France and I think the situation is different from that in Germany, because of France's colonial history. Some N. African countries as well as Syria.
It seems that most of the terrible attacks are by Muslims who were born and brought up here, and have been influenced by the social media, and feel socially deprived.
There are many France born N Africans in SE France, in several towns and cities.
There's a mosque in our main departmental town, which was set on fire last year. The Imam had made inflammatory speeches. But numbers there are relatively small.

I was interested to hear your experience of the word Gastarbeiter, Lillie. DH and I worked in Hamburg for a couple of years even longer ago (over 40 years) and were never called Gastarbeiter, though we certainly knew the term. It was only ever applied then to Turkish and Italian workers, many of whom had come to work in Germany on low paid short term contracts on a formal scheme of that name. In our experience the word was frequently used in a derogatory way, and the workers (invariably single, or at least in Germany without their families) lived in very basic hostels - there were exposes in the German media at the time showing cramped conditions and highlighting racism directed towards the Gastarbeiter. Interesting how times (and semantics) change.

No, I don't think you have to do that obieone. It's not an illegal organisation, just anti-Islam. Maybe read about it online and then decide.

I somewhat agree DaphneBroon and Wilma.
The subject is a bit complicated for me to sort out in my head.

The birth rate appears to be very low in Germany and Belgium, and falling in France.

But then I get into the issue of migrants, and then the atrocities including the one in France this morning, and indeed I dont know enough about the subject for this thread.

I dont know a thing about PEDIGA, and if it is a right-wing extremist group, it may be best to ask gransnet to delete the thread?

Sorry, PEDIGA, not PERDIGA.

I agree. The link in the OP is about Germany's ageing and declining population, and the potential problems of relying on immigration as part of the solution. However, within the article are links to PERDIGA, a right wing extremist group and that muddies the message of the article (probably intentionally).

obieone is in danger of doing the same thing with her follow up posts. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Just read your post of 12.04 obieone and I think there is a distinct danger in conflating the economic significance of immigrant workers with refugees and asylum seekers and then correlating that with your references to "atrocities".
Not the same thing and this misconception may well have been at the root of much of the misinformation disseminated by the more outrageous Brexiteers - Farage for instance.

With all respect, I think this is the problem with posting a link without knowing much about the subject.
Changing the thread title also then smacks of moving the goalposts unless obieone can bring additional perspective to the issue.

obieone was your original post saying Germany has a long term problem because of its ageing and declining population, or because of the high number of refugees it recently admitted?

Gransnetters who live in France and Belgium.
Same sort of question really. Is France and Belgium perceived to have potentially more problems in some areas of France than others?

Obviously Paris and Brussels. But are the attrocities[and future ones sadly] more likely to occur in certain areas?

I have now asked gransnet if they will kindly change the subject heading of this thread to now include France and Belgium.

MargaretX
Babies wont enter the workforce for 18 years.
And saying France and the US are just as bad, does not help Germany.

Jobs - I dont understand your jobs comment, as that was why they need immigrants, to do the jobs? Or is it certain jobs they need filling, and not others?

Are some areas of Germany having more problems with some immigrants than others?

I suppose what I am asking is partly for my family, as some of them want to visit and whatever for a short period of time.

Interesting to have an inside perspective Mx