Have you made your mind up about the referendum?

Am thinking stay as Richard Branson and Martin Lewis seem to think so and are both experts when it comes down to money matters

Like your name corncob?

Conflicting thoughts I feel living I the North East of engl
And we will be worse off if we leave and after going through a recession don't want to do it again so soon

The truth is, nobody knows what the result would be if we left the EU.

There have been dishonest and exaggerated claims on both sides.

I want us to leave.

Question time on BBC1 last night was interesting. Go and read Steve Hilton's views. He is a clever bloke (who used to advise Cameron, for his sins) but he knows his stuff, and very clearly tells it like it is.

"What will Britain be like if it's not in the EU?" Ans: "Managing perfectly well, like any other country managing well which isn't part of the EU." We'll trade with China, India and the USA - and huge car concerns like Mercedes and BMW who rely on exporting vast amounts to the UK, aren't going to cold shoulder us. Nor will the French who sell us wine and cheese. We'll create our own deals, on our own terms.

Cameron and those he has surrounded himself with have a vested interest in remaining. They are concerned about loss of position, power and personal wealth.

Many socialists believe the EU is driving an austerity budget, keeping wages low (migrants are accepting pitifully low wages and awful working conditions) as bosses get bigger profits and amass personal wealth. Many wealthy people are scared their own gravy train will run out of steam. I'd rather side with those passionate about the future of this country, with no axe to grind and no vested interest in what's in it for them.

I fear we will lose our democracy if we remain. Cameron has shown us he has no real power to change EU policy. His reforms didn't happen.

So, who will decide what's best for us in the future? Delegates from Slovenia? People representing the other 28 countries? The EU is going to become the United States of Europe, acquiring territory in places like abysmally poor Albania, and it will give those desperate people a route to the west, instead of helping them have a better life where they are, with the building of schools, hospitals, factories. Where is the altruism? No, migration is easier, so that is encouraged, leaving land and raw materials up for grabs. Do those in their ivory towers care that the services and resources of countries in western Europe are struggling to cope with rising numbers? The rise and rise of extreme right wing hate groups also worries me. People are reacting to what is happening all over Europe, and not in a good way.

I have no desire to be part of this power bloc that is destabilizing so much of Europe. Not only that, who is driving the EU train, because it ain't Cameron, for sure.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Germany and France in the not too distant future when citizens of both countries go to the polls.

We have to get out.

Nothing new there, Day6. You've always said that.
It's not the EU that is driving austerity and keeping wages down.
It's Cameron and Osborne's long-term economic plan, which, by the way, has not hit a single target. Boris, IDS and the other brexiters have voted along with it for six years. They are not suddenly going to feel sorry for the poor and those without jobs.

Pot, kettle, black durhamjen. Your offerings are in the same vein, always.

"They are not suddenly going to feel sorry for the poor and those without jobs."

Sadly, under both left and right wing governments the poor and unemployed have featured.I don't see how opening up the market to people so incredibly poor who'll take less than the minimum wage, and gladly, is improving the outlook for people in this country who expect better, fairer rewards for their labour.

I am not a Boris fan, but he is concerned that the people of this country do deserve better than that. It's an issue Corbyn also used to support and socialists are concerned. I am surprised you haven't mentioned it more DJ. Allowing employers to gain from the abysmal plight - and poorly paid - labour of others smacks of a return to Victorian working practices. Migrants eye such poorly paid jobs as Lottery wins and employers rub their hands together in glee, as their coffers bulge. If UK workers, those at the bottom of the pile more than any, want to see wages rise and standards of living go up, this isn't the way to go about it. No wonder business men like the EU. I have no desire to see them profit from bad practice.

I have said it before, those passionate about the future of Britain and our democracy will always have my vote. Those who want to remain because the EU gravy train is benefiting them will never win favour with me, and I don't have to look much further than Cameron and Osborne and their coterie of fat cats, plus those on the left who also have vested interests in remaining, and see the EU as a socialist experiment, a destabilising exercise, albeit one that is going dreadfully wrong.

Can you give proof of all these people you talk about taking less than the minimum wage?
If so, you need to report the employers. Your posts are full of cliches.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/boris-johnson-does-not-know-fact-from-fiction-says-chris-patten

AS far as migrant farm workers (and these are most of the migrant workers in East Anglia) no one else wants or is prepared to do the jobs. They are far from low paid, they can earn good money, but it is hard work.

I do get fed up with this constant bickering about past governments and their treatment of workers. By far the majority of workers in this country are not poor and are represented by the government that was voted in at the time. The EU debate should be about facts relating to our membership of the EU (if we can find one that we all agree on) not personalities.

The truth is, nobody knows what the result would be if we left the EU

There have been dishonest and exaggerated claims on both sides

Anya I could not have agreed more. There are more and more outrageous prognostications from both sides, do they think we are stupid? The serious risk is that unlike the Scottish Referendum which recorded the highest % turnout at the polls this country has seen, the Referendum campaign risks turning otherwise sensible people right off as they are exposed to arrant nonsense from people who should know better. It is very dispiriting

And unlike general election, where you get a chance every four years to change your mind, this vote is for the foreseeable future, and the future of our children/grandchildren.

Thank you Day6, you have voiced my feelings exactly and much better than I could.

Illegal immigrants are working for less than the minimum wage DJ

Whether that has anything to do with the EU or whether they'd be hear anyway is another issue.

I too was impressed by Steve Hilton on QT. He cut through all tne hype and exaggeration, on both sides, and talked plain good sense - the first person to do so.

Be here!

Your posts are full of cliches Sat 28 June-16-00.54.50
(Thread/style police?)

Whether one agrees with a member's opinions or not, she/he is entitled to express them and criticism of "clichés" is unjustified.
Remember - "never use clichés, avoid them like the plague"

Can one avoid the plague Alea anymore than we can avoid yet another la peste?

Just to add more stuff into the mix
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/brexit-threat-to-spains-secret-little-britain

The changes that Cameron did get agreed in Brussels - changing the time migrants need to wait to get benefits being one - will not be ratified until after the referendum - no point as will not be needed if UK votes to leave.
There are too many things which will affect normal daily life if we leave as the out camp will be able to rescind many of the protection legislation for workers.

I seem to remember them saying Steve Hiltin is now working in USA so will not be affected anyway by this referendum. I did not think he was so good at all - he can talk the talk all right but that is his training.

It is not so much a question of the EU not wishing to trade with UK but the cost of doing the trade. At the moment it is free trade - that will cease if we leave. There would be no point in having the EU if free trade was the default position for any country outside it. We would have a choice of either paying fees to have free trade - as much as now with no rebates so in effect more money - or to pay tariffs. The Green Party lady - Caroline Lucas - kept telling Steve Hilton this and he simply ignored her- head in sand comes to mind.

Small companies in UK which export to the EU would no doubt feel the effect badly if tariffs raised their prices and made them too expensive and that would affect the unemployment levels.

What makes anyone think that good, sensible legislation already in place will be rescinded? That is most unlikely, but perhaps some of the useless and over prescriptive legislation which limits the ability of UK companies to export to markets outside the UK will be dismantled.

I was listening to a programme on Radio 4 where a manufacturer was supporting the 'leave' campaign simply because of this bureaucracy.

Steve Hiltin is indeed a good speaker I agree Welshwife which is why he was able to put his argument forward so clearly an precisely and he was the first I have heard admit that it was a step into the unknown - whether we stay or leave. Very refreshing.

I think that is something which ought to be taken into consideration by those still undecided in this referendum.......it is also a step into the unknown if we remain as who knows what a future EU looks like.

I'm with Delia!

Sorry Anya for a late reply, my advice to "avoid clichés like the plague" was a feeble attempt at a joke.
You know like other examples of writing style advice
"Always avoid alliteration"

Just read something that's made me think on. If we come out do we risk becoming a poodle of the US (again)? I think we're already too much in the shadow of the US and if the US were under Trump that would be a calamity! imo... So due to cultural preferences (Europe vs US), I'm veering towards staying in, after leaning the other way up to now.

Lisalou. Read your link about Expats living in a British ghetto on the Costas. It made me smile - they're living a totally British way of life with minimal Spanish contact. It's a fairly recently built "paradise" constructed on old scrub land. They are terrified of UK exiting EU, as one says "they talk about Syrians, but if UK leaves the EU they'll have about 2 million pensioners returning demanding to use the NHS......." Are any expats GNetters thinking of returning?

Absolutely not Lazigirl. It will undoubtedly mean a loss of income as the pound has already declined against the euro and would almost certainly go down even more. Loss of health cover is a worry, but I think we would probably have to pay 8% of our income to be allowed to stay in the health system here, but that would be worth it.
I wouldn't want to go back to Brexit Britain tbh. Delia sums it up pretty well for me.