little Englander

Incorrect Ceesnan, it is a Welsh place name, there is no v in the Welsh alphabet , it's the way England chose to spell it , ignoring this fact, but v is used even though it's incorrect . A place in England called Ford would be spelt Fford if Wales mucked up the English alphabet . Take the Christian name Ivor, been this way since the Welsh language was oppressed , but the correct spelling is , so I was really being arsy sorry, we fought so long to get Welsh recognised as a national language , suppose you don't know of the cutting down of road signs - at night - which was part if the fight , caused lot of problems

sorry Ceesnan.

There isn't and X , j or k either

granjura I agree with you that the suppression of a language or dialect or the ridiculing of a particular accent has used in the effort to subjugate people by making them them feel less worthy.

A comment column in the Telegraph in 2014 relating to Alan Bennett unwittingly betrayed this sort of attitude:

"Recalling Oxford where, as a student and then a research fellow, he [AB] knew the likes of AJP Taylor and CS Lewis, he feels he was taught “inadequately”. Oh, come off it! For a young man from a modest background in Leeds, an Oxford education was a boon..."

Alan Bennett was perfectly entitled to express the view that his Oxford education was "narrow" without it being suggested that someone of his "lowly" background ought to just shut up and be grateful that he had ever been allowed into such elevated circles.

Is it incorrect or just an alternative spelling?

11% of people living in Wales speak Welsh fluently. 23% can speak some Welsh.

granjura, Welsh is not a local language or dialect , Wales is a country not a county , therefore Welsh is the language of a country

It is a fact though, that the suppression, by force or derision, of local languages and dialects, all over the world- has been a strong force of subjugation and colonisation- and caused much resentment and pain.

I also remember Melwyn Bragg in his book on English, that when he grew up in (I think) Lancashire and went to Grammar School- it was made very clear and plain to him, directly and in many 'subtle' ways (if mockery can ever be subtle)- that he had to lose his country boy accent and fast, if he was going to get anywhere.

Thank you Ceesnan , i know many put V in Caernafon, I was surprised you didn't know it was incorrect , it's an English thing , just think if I spelt London - Londun ,

Only just come back to this thread, had other things to do last night, but what a pity, as I could have replied straight away about my father's language preference. He could speak Welsh I believe, but the family's first choice was English. He was educated in England (Brightlands, Harrow and Cambridge) became a GP and practiced in England so he certainly didn't have the opportunity to use it much. Abd by the way, I don't make things up - your guess is as good as mine as to why those people decided to speak Welsh, but it would only be a guess. This post is mainly for Anniebach by the way, oh, and as for CaernarVon, that's how it's spelt in my Atlas.

Well said * Eliothan*. I couldn't agree more.
My daughter had a Welsh choir to sing at her wedding. Only stipulation , no Myfanwy. Otherwise we would all be in tears. She had that counting goats one to exit the church !!

I would argue that in general we, who inhabit these British Isles do get on pretty well with each other as individuals. If people are friendly and have shared interests, be that nature, Grandchildren, golf , music, charity work then where they are from has little or no relevance. I have found that people who move into my area who complain about the climate, local accents, school curriculum, whatever, are generally pretty scathing too about the last place they lived - whereas the folks who rapidly make friends and become part of the community, often talk fondly about the place and friends they left behind.

We should not let one nasty encounter with a Welshman, Scotsman, Englishman, Irishman, Glaswegian, Londoner, fan of a particular football club colour our perceptions of a whole nation or area. We have simply met a nasty person - they exist everywhere but thankfully are vastly outnumbered by kind, caring, welcoming people.

If I say that I am a Scottish Nationalist, many people jump to the conclusion that I hate 'The English' this is so not the case. I am always careful to take aim at the 'Westminster Parliament', that undemocratic institution which rules over us from afar. I am quite sure that many (most?) people in the far corners of the UK share the feeling that their views are not represented there. Just as I know that regional differences in language were actively discouraged as much in Cornwall and Devon, Newcastle and Liverpool as they were in North Wales, Glasgow and the Western Isles. I believe that attempts to force each of us into a straightjacket of homogenous 'Britishness' alongside a 'divide and rule' policy which seeks to set one class or religion or nationality or locality against the other is deliberately pursued by the 'elite' to deter us from uniting against them.

Left to our own devices, stranded on a desert island, where we all had to pull together to survive, we would all get on together just fine.

I knew an old lady who said she had to wear the dunce's cap and sit in the corner for speaking Welsh in school in South Wales, that would have been over 70 years ago
Jalima I may be wrong but I was under the impression that in the 1800's/early 1900's, it was very much discouraged for children to speak Welsh in school and the use of the Welsh language was seen as an act of defiance.
I may be wrong about her age Eloethan, she was the mother of a friend (friend is younger than me) and I think she would be about 85, possibly 90 now.
She vividly remembered having to wear a dunce's cap for speaking Welsh in school.

But if we can't at least try to get on when we are all part of the same relatively small land mass it's no wonder that the world is in such a mess.
I agree!

Jalima I may be wrong but I was under the impression that in the 1800's/early 1900's, it was very much discouraged for children to speak Welsh in school and the use of the Welsh language was seen as an act of defiance.

I think it's a great shame that some English, Welsh and Scottish people direct so much animosity towards each other. I see us all as British but I do understand that there are all sorts of historical (and continuing) reasons why some parts of the UK (including those parts of England that are situated far from London) feel aggrieved. But if we can't at least try to get on when we are all part of the same relatively small land mass it's no wonder that the world is in such a mess.

There is grumppa , not sure if I can recall the words not as good as a ripe rugby sing are they , not that I would know about French one's, can!t speak it, well one word. Panache , but no idea if spelling is correct

I hadn't realised there was a version of Sospan fach that wasn't rude. On reflection, there must be respectable versions of the French rugby songs I remember from my season there; they just never seemed to come up apres match.

Terfel

It is a beautiful song Nellie, Bryn Tefril sings it too

I love the song Myfanwy with a good male voice choir. It is just a beautiful tune.

I learnt Welsh for two years when I was in Cardiff 1973/5 and can still sing Sospan Fach. I was serenading baby DGS2 with it a couple of weeks ago when he was upset as Mummy had gone out for a short while.

True, but they may forget and sing the rude version

Sospan fach would cheer up the mourners.

I always sang Myfanwy when Wales lost, still do but not in the rugby club now, can't embarrass the grandchildren , I can't think of a sadder song

My priest gave a frown when I said I wanted The Red flag, The Welsh Anthem and Myfanwy , so I swapped one for Calon Lan

Now that's a song for a funeral!

I wish I could remember the song a Welsh team mate of mine used to sing after a few pints when we had lost. He was loose head prop and I was tight: when we did lose it was always the backs' fault. He used to explain that it was the saddest song he knew, apart from Myfanwy

grumppa, so sorry but not Myfanwy , it was my childhood lullaby and will be played at my funeral

Try this one , have to translate

Victorious, Victorious, 12 bottles of beer between the four of us , thanks be to God there are no more of us cause one os us could drink the bloody lot, stopper and all

Nant y mynydd , first poem I ever learned.

Well I daren't call you Anniecariad, anniebach!

[Retires humming Myfanwy.]

Stream, that's pretty