Worrying situation

I don't agree at all with any suggestion that women are in some way to blame for putting themselves at risk. I feel women should be able to dress as they please and walk where they wish to, at whatever time of the day or night, without being accused of making themselves vulnerable.

I absolutely disagree with the opinion expressed that feminism has not done women any favours. I think it is the lack of feminism that makes women vulnerable because many of them have bought into the notion that their principal worth is their attractiveness to men.

I was not saying that the men who carried out these assaults should not be punished. I think it's vital that a strong message is sent out that any sort of sexual harassment or assault is not acceptable and will be severely dealt with. I was saying it is obviously totally untrue to state that European men "don't act like this" (i.e. sexually assault or rape women) - they do.

I did it read that into janes's or POG's posts at all.

I did NOT read that into jane's or POG's posts

One key factor that underpins a large part of this issue at home and in Germany is just plain alcohol. Overconsumption by young girls here leads them to disinhibited states but ,I think crucially, alcohol is not available in some of these Muslim countries. The young migrant men could be quite unaccustomed to it hence their behaviour at Hogmanay? Just a thought.

I'm not sure where you got that impression from Jing, the conversation did digress somewhat when some of us drew contrasts between our own experiences when we were young and how some young women objectify themselves these days, they were just general observations. We were not alluding to the women of Cologne at all,I thought the assaults were outrageous and the young woman, Michelle, who came forward to describe her awful experiences, was very brave indeed. I did make the point in the final paragraph of my last post that Germany needs to address the situation, preferably by expelling any prospective asylum seekers who are found guilty of these crimes, primarily for the sake of German women, but also for social cohesion, they really have a potential tinder box on their hands.

It did occur to me that maybe some of the men were "agent provocateurs" planted by IS, along with terrorists, to maybe stir things up and derail the Merkel project.

I have been following the thread on Mumsnet because sometimes it is interesting to see the comments from what I assume is a different age demographic. One line of thought that has come up a number of times, is that whilst the DM has a tendency to sensationalise news items such as this one, The Guardian on the other hand, whilst covering it, have shut down debate their on line posts and the suggestion is that, as with the Rotheram grooming scandals, the left do not like to debate issues that they find uncomfortable. One woman made the comment that womens' rights would be pushed aside so as "not to rock the boat" on this one.

I would think it likely that the Guardian shut down the online responses was because they became too racist!

POGS I wasn't referring to your post.

I think it is ridiculous to include any mention of young drunken and under-dressed women in this subject. The happenings in Cologne were nothing at all to do with that. It almost belittles the enormity of what happened. And what it could mean for European cities in terms of tourism, apart from anything else.

Talking about what happens here as the post has widened to include that I wonder what is now considered as sexual assault compared to what we would have thought in the 60s/70s? I read of a woman who complained about a man putting his hand on her knee and following her to the lift and suggesting she went to his room. Is that sexual assault? If it is then perhaps the figures reported are understandable.

I suspect that men don't report 'sexual assault' as much as women because their interpretation of what it means is more narrow.

I suppose it is impossible to work out when flirting becomes assault and would be different depending upon the perception of the person affected.

I totally agree with POGS' post.

Wouldn't that be sexual harassment rather than assault nonnie?

Terribull

My post of yesterday says that is exactly what Angela Merkel has said.

"We'll need to examine whether we've done everything that's needed in terms of 'expulsions' from Germany so we send a clear signal to those who aren't willing to obey our legal standards".

The introduction of lack of clothing, alcohol consumption, behaviour by the women who reported their attacks has little to no relevance at all when discussing the attacks that took place in Germany .

There were large groups of what the German people are readily calling Immigrants undertaking the attacks, indeed Angela Merkel describes it as the assaults touch on the "coexistence of cultures" she also says "The events in Cologne raise very serious questions that go beyond Cologne, whether there are connections, common practices of behaviour and is there something like 'contempt' for women among certain groups".

You are in my opinion correct to point out when two diverse media outlets report facts such as the Daily Mail and The Guardian there is an immediate preconception by quite a few people to simply put their prejudices against them and don't look at the story in it's rational, factual content and the discussion folds like a stack of cards when the facts point in a direction that does not suit their 'sensitivities'.

The attacks were carried out on women wearing clothing for winter weather, even sometimes accompanied by male companions! , it was the sheer size of numbers of the men perpetrating their total disregard for the German women and if you can watch the televised reports on Aljazeera and Russia Today as they have covered this story more openly and from the start . The things reported are shocking both in what abuse the women had to suffer and the sheer b----y arrogance of the attackers believing the Germans were fair game and nothing would be done to punish them. Hopefully the German nation has more sense than to put up with this behaviour and Merkel puts her money where her mouth is.

Jingle

I did wonder , I think we can agree it was merely the timing of our posts that made it appear as such.

[dove]

You may be right jingle I don't know which is why I posted it. It used to simply be that you pushed him off or, at the worst, gave him a slap, and then it was over. I never thought of it as harassment or assault at the time, just the way things were. A famous DJ 'assaulted' me in the 60s but I wouldn't dream of telling the police now as it was the sort of thing they did in those days and I see no point in ruining his old age. It hasn't ruined my life!

Nonnie this wasn't a bit of knee touching for heavens sake. Read the reports. It was a mass sexual assault, hands were pushed up skirts, into knickers, is that graphic enough for you? I dont think a shriek and a slap would do much do you?

Nonnie. Good for you. Commonsense at last.

Checking. Having probs posting.

It's fixed now petra.

These assaults also happened in Zurich ,in Finland and Sweden. Several Iraqi men were arrested on suspicion of coordinating attacks in Finland I believe.

GillT I think it might be a good idea for you to read my post again before getting so agitated! Or maybe you read one without reading the other? If you only read the last one I can assure you he did far worse than touching my knee!

The bit you seem to have missed was "Talking about what happens here as the post has widened to include that". Your post to me implies I was talking about the OP.

And Salzburg has been added to the list. I can't believe I'm reading this. Is this why one railway station was closed down previously to this? That the authorities thought a terrorist attack could only be a bomb not a mass attack on women.

A gang of forty men surrounding you as you walk along with husband and child and groping you intimately. Can't remember that happening very often in the sixties!

There is an article in todays DM www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3389734/Why-Britain-worried-flood-young-male-migrants-Leader-lawyer-s-son-immigrants-gives-stark-warning.html The link title gives you a fair idea what it is about.

The author points out that a high proportion of the immigrants are young men on their own without other family members and many are young enough to be classed as children and the problems that will inevitably follow where you have large groups of young men on their own.

These attacks were organised and the men were in teams rather than groups. I think Stansgran has a point, there is more than one way of carrying out terrorist attacks and 'dishonouring 'kuffir' women' would be seen by the perpetrators as a way to destabilise the society they are now part of and at the same time show their contempt for both the women and the men who 'allow' them to have the freedoms they have.

I read this this morning. Very good. Another part of this story is the way that these huge numbers of single young men is going to change the face of Europe. Sweden are already talking about this.

I have to say that I can't believe that someone is putting these horrendous assaults in the same context of some young lad shouting out ' fancy a s..g' or have I got that wrong?

There are reports of two rapes and of assaults that left women with serious bruises on their breasts and buttocks. To link that to an assault in the 60's by a DJ is totally ridiculous.

These serious sexual assaults were part of a criminal conspiracy it seems, with robbery just one element of the plan.

Iam64. Is it that some people have lived in such a bubble that they just don't understand what can happen in these situations?

Sorry petra - I must have x posted with you as I hadn't seen your post that appears just before mine in which I was responding to Nonnie who seemed to have made a gigantic leap between inappropriate behaviour by individuals in the 60's and the awful behaviour of large groups of men in Cologne.

I agree with you therefore, that to put these dreadful assaults in the same context as a shout of "fancy a **" is ridiculous and minimises what must have been a truly terrifying experience.

I saw the Swedish research you mention. From memory the research confirmed (as you'd expect) that where male immigrants from similar cultures to their female counterparts by large numbers, it has been established that sexual offences by those young men increases.

The whole of northern Europe needs to wake up to the potential difficulties. I was genuinely shocked that the (female) mayor of Cologne thought it reasonable and wise to issue guidance for women about keeping themselves safe in these situations. Not a single word of advice or guidance for the young men who behaved appallingly and committed offences. Shocked!