How poor is poor?

Bikergran please take your kind father's offer. I desperately want to give my hard earned wealth to my children rather than the Exchequer (which has already had more than is decent from me,)and am very saddened if they decline and I know that I would give with an open hand never mentioning it again as I am sure your father would. I also think you would be a very good DIY person especially if you specialised in offering to nervous people on their own.

Op asked how we would define poverty. Definition and perception are two completely different things.
People on here are surely talking about their perception of poverty, not their definition.

I think reluctant dependency on benefits or barely being able to earn enough for basics (roof/food/utility bills) suggests poverty.

Following a life crisis my brother was dependent on benefits and consequently now lives with me. It was an expense for him to get into the Job Centre /attend interviews which if he did not do he would not have received any benefit. I can see how people easily spiral into being rough sleepers after a bout of illness /job loss /marital breakup etc.

The western world /business world is more and more reliant on cars/ internet and one can be penalised in being able to access work if you do not have these .

£15,360 then

But that is relative to where you live, how many people you may have to support and other factors such as transport to work etc etc

Bikergran.... another way of looking at your df offer of help.... perhaps he feels a little sad that you don't take him up on it

Sorry, but I really couldn't resist.

fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/poverty_measure_changes_income-50463
The government wants to change the definition of poverty so there is no reference to income.

Riverwalk The point I was making re my neighbours frugal lifestyle was that although she appeared poor to those who didn't know her she was far from it and unless you know appearances can be deceptive.
I do think a fair few pensioners need the help of foodbanks and can't afford the heating they need. Just what I think.

The official definition of poverty is 60% of median income (£25,600), so that'll be £15,360 then.

Yes, let him help you, Bikergran, it will give him pleasure.

Perhaps you could offer to pay him back if you get your business up and running and making a profit.

ninathenana the old unmarried lady who lived next door to us when I was growing up seemed desperately poor. DF was forever going in to 'unplug my drain, please, Mr G' and she wore terrible old clothes - a summer dress in the depths of winter with a shrunken grey cardigan over the top done up with a safety pin. DM used to pass her a Sunday dinner over the hedge and always a Christmas dinner. However, DM said, much as she would like to invite her over, she couldn't because she smelt so awful!
When she died we discovered she owned that house, the one next door, another in the town and the house was stuffed full of banknotes.

Imagine your child asking if you can have two ounces of sweets and the Mum looks in her purse, and all there is in it is a little gold safety pin!
I think DM used to keep a little gold safety pin in her purse - perhaps it was meant to bring good luck.

I cannot but agree with everything Grannyactivist has said. Having had a very poor childhood myself and never had much as a young (single) mother I am now, thanks to having started my own business some years ago, quite well off but, as you said, there is no way I will ever forget what it's like to have nothing and I, too, am very grateful for the comforts I now enjoy.

Another thing that is impossible to shake off is the saving habit. I cannot bear to waste things, food in particular, and can't see the point of replacing applicances that still work perfectly well. I am never happier than when I find a bargain - a bargain being defined as something I needed anyway, and managed to find cheaper than expected.

Respect also to Bikergran. Your father sounds like a lovely man, so why not let him help? From personal experience I feel happier spending on my children than on myself, so it may make him happy, too?

biker - do let your family help. Perhaps it would give your Dad pleasure to see you benefiting from his money while he is alive rather than after he has died. I know that this is how I feel in relation to my children.

Our income is relatively small (for various reasons like OH's ill health we did not accumulate much in the way of proper pensions), but we own our own home (wiped out mortgage by downsizing) so no housing costs, and we have some savings left by family. We are comfortable and do not feel the pinch at all and we count ourselves very lucky indeed. I am at a loss to know what really rich people spend their money on - there is nothing we want for.

Respect to all of you who manage on tiny incomes. Have you talked to CAB to make sure there is no benefit that you might qualify for?

Plenty of information on the Age UK website. Just because you don't know any pensioners living in poverty personally, Riverwalk, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Yes Ana, we do hear about such pensioners - but is it true?

I'm not aware of any pensioner who can't actually 'afford' to keep warm rather than make the choice to be unnecessarily frugal.

I think we were extremely lucky with our local authority when I was a child. They went to great lengths to keep our heads above water. Wouldn't be like that now. Too many people and not enough money.

And we're always hearing about pensioners who can only afford to heat one room, never mind turn the heating up!

Can't be a lot of fun though.

Nina you did say that there are many poor pensioners - I think that's just not true.

Living an extremely frugal lifestyle doesn't mean that they can't actually afford to buy a new coat or turn up the heating.

As a child I lived in poverty; I had malnutrition, the bailiffs took the furniture, I didn't have adequate shoes or clothing and we only just escaped being evicted (my nana lent my mum some money to pay the outstanding rent and saved us).

As a young wife I was poor; I skipped meals in order to pay bills (having been left with a terror of debt from my childhood experiences I have never owed a penny other than for my mortgage), I lived without a washing machine for three years whilst I saved up for one, I watched every penny and walked miles to save on bus fares, I couldn't easily afford prescription charges if I was ill. My daughter was taken to hospital several times and having to find extra money for my bus fares was a crippling expense.

In my thirties I lived in relative poverty; I had two jobs - one full time and another as a waitress in the evenings, this meant I could afford to pay for my children to go on school trips. I had to save up to replace aged appliances and furniture - and all of my furniture was secondhand. Holidays were visits to my husband's family in Devon, but although the accommodation was free we had to save up for the fuel for the journey in our very old car that was a really old clapped out thing. Meals out were non-existent and everything was tightly budgeted for. I lived in fear of unexpected expenditure.

Now, in my middle age, I feel affluent and I am grateful for the ease that this provides. I don't think anyone who has been in poverty or has been very poor will ever shake off the memories, I never have, but I do think that overall the experience has given me a very positive outlook. I think of myself as a survivor and I have learnt to especially appreciate relationships and the simple things in life.

Riverwalk you have a point. I did have a widowed neighbour who was in the situation you describe but that was 20 yrs ago.
The other side of the coin is the near neighbour who recently died. Her house was in bad repair when we moved here 28 yrs ago and looks the same now. She wore the same winter coat and hat for all that time and the same 'duster' coat every summer, DH and I felt sympathy for her. She left £100000 + in her will, a relative told me. Unless you know someone personally, you never can tell.

Bikergran, you do have support , there are many who do not, hope you will be able to buy a new stove in the not too distant future

Bikergran. I understand your need for independence . But what if the boot was on the other foot and one of your children was in need, wouldn't you want to help in any way you could. Let him do it, it makes him happy. He knows, as we all do: you can't take it with you.

I am also fiercely independent lol. Like to manage my own things, my dad bless him keeps wanting to buy me a car (an older car) I try to explain that it wants petrol insurance etc..he says "I will buy it for you insure it and tax it) but I say what happens next year though...! I feel like Im kicking him in teeth everytime I refuse.Although I have been kicking the idea of starting my own cleaning business up so yes a car would be very handy! (better than the wheelbarrow) lol.

I agree with OP who says poverty has changed over the years.and agree with olderNoWiser post. each of us see poverty in different ways.

I am on Jobseekers and to be honest cannot see me securing a job for the next 7 yrs to my retirement. I manage my very carefull budget of £73 a week,(think that is approx £3,796 per year)which has to pay gas/electric/water meter/phone(needed for internet) council tax(yes albeit a small amount but still have to pay some) TV licence, and last of all food,and bus fares if I am too tired to walk back home from town. But I don't consider my self poor, I own my own house and am sitting on equity which I cannot get at ( looked at the equity releases schemes but have never really found people that say it's good)
My neighbour is good and invites me round for eats, my mum (at nearly 81) brings me treats when her and my dad call, bread milk, ham biscuits etc.
But I see my self as sort of "well off" compared to others,I have a nice home although cannot replace the things I would like to(oven gone kerput this week) tut!! so I Upcycle I don't go hungry I am well padded! I don't smoke but do have occasional glass of wine.I know that if I ever did! get a job that is reasonable pay, that I can manage on a small amount and would be able to save up.It's not easy but doable, if your a good money manager. Unfortunatley a lot of people arn't,their money as gone in the blink of an eye.also credit is so easy to come by.