How poor is poor?

Thank you Grannyactivist , admit I am more confused now, I hate the daily mail but will be accused of virtue signalling ? I am pretending to care about the vulnerable ? Not true because I do care , seems it just means a poster can mock another poster, not nice

James Bartholomew coined the phrase, so here is his definition of what exactly it is: www.spectator.co.uk/2015/04/hating-the-daily-mail-is-a-substitute-for-doing-good/.

Just looked it up, means showing off , I see no showing off on this thread

Oops, sorry meant virtue signalling , what is it?

I still don't know what virtual signalling is

Older I don't think there can be many people who have very little

can feel rich in that they have peace of mind

roseq I agree that theres much 'virtue signalling ' on this and many other threads. An interesting comment.

Could poverty be not being able to buy what you need - not want

What an interesting discussion this has turned out to be
As various people have pointed out and Bikergran has illustrated so well I do really believe that all poverty is relative - people who have very little can feel rich in that they have peace of mind, which eludes many who are much better off.
I have a step-daughter, whose household income from her and her husband's jobs totals more than £80,000 p.a. They always drive the latest cars, take a Caribbean cruise every year, their house is crammed to the rafters with stuff nobody needs or appreciates, and they forever in debt and are both on anti-depressants !!!

This is what I would call povery of the soul, which is not dependent on income and I think we all know what I mean.

Biker you live just as I do, I do have a car as I work but it was bought by my mother, I started to pay her back but she refused. I do without like you do and like you my bills are up to date (apart from the credit card but Im working on that, Xmas money will almost pay that off).

My problem is that everything is connected, If I have no car I cant work, If I don't work I cant pay my mortgage, If I lose my house I will only be offered a council flat , however even a flat would be too expensive to afford therefore I couldn't find another job as my mortgage is much less than council rent. Its just a big chain. I too have bought presents for DGD from the charity shop, if I want a treat I go to the charity shops, my winter coat was from there and my woollies were knitted by me, some from recycled wool from another worn out one. Im not complaining as I was brought up to be careful anyway. Im still loving life and glad to be alive despite everything

Yes I understanding the offer of the car from my dad and how easy it would be to say "yes" but it still needs fuel etc, even if it was only 1 gallon a week that is around £20 a month and yes he is trying to help but it's no use me saying yes and having the car sat there because I cannot afford to put fuel in.but it is hard saying no but I will keep thinking about it.?

All my bills are paid and up to date which I am chuffed at, I have manged to save my birthday money for clothes but now of course the oven!! dohhhhhh but I can live without the oven for a while, I have a mini oven, a microwave, slow cook and will purchase a toaster today. It sounds like I have a meagre existance but I don't want to give that impression. I want to give the impression that yes you can just about live on a small amount.I do feel sad that I can't treat my 2 GSs as I used to but I do buy the elder one clothes from the charity shop (new george sweatshirt with tags £1.20) my bargain of the week ! brill he was thrilled with it.)

As others have said, an income of £24,000 can mean different things to different people.

If you are living in a well maintained, mortgage-free home with lots of energy saving features and you have no dependents, then £24,000 is a reasonable income.

If you have dependents, are having to pay rent or a mortgage and are living in a house that is proving costly to maintain and heat, are having to pay travel costs to get to work, etc. etc., £24,000 isn't very much at all.

I think it is probably fair to say it is unlikely that we have the same degree of life-threatening poverty that can be seen in developing countries. However, there are certainly people who are unable to heat or furnish their homes properly, who find it very difficult to adequately dress and feed themselves and their children or to pay for unexpected repairs and replacements and who have no spare money for days out or meals out. I think, in the context of a rich country which (usually) endures long, cold winters, that constitutes very real poverty.

I don't find the argument "it was much worse in my day" very persuasive because if it had been accepted by the generations before us then we would still be living in freezing cold homes (many without proper bathing/toilet facilities), working six and a half days a week, 9 hours a day, with no holiday pay, employment rights, automatic access to health care or pension.

Pensioner poverty remains stubbornly persistent in the UK, affecting 1.6m people living on or below the poverty line and 900,000 people living in severe poverty.

This is despite older people being entitled to benefits designed to increase their income. We know that as many as 1.6m older people who are entitled to Pension Credit are not claiming it - this could mean them receiving an extra £1,700 a year.

That would put food in the cupboards or, in Lily's case, pay the heating bills to keep her warm in winter.

From the ageuk website. 1.8 million in relative poverty, and these figures as well.

rosequartz it wasn't your post or the others about poverty many years ago that prompted me to post about virtue signalling. My comment about mentioning poverty pre the NHS, etc., was meant as a separate comment. Sorry if it didn't come over that way.

I only heard of the phrase virtue signalling for the first time on here the other day, but if I understood it correctly then there's a lot of it on this thread.
I don't think it is virtue signalling to point out that being poor is relative to the era in which we live - when a poster mentioned her father having to leave school at 14 and work even though he was clever, and that they had ice on the inside of their windows when she was a child, I don't think it was wrong to point out that that was probably the norm for those days.

She and I were probably both trying to point out what was normal in times gone by would be considered below the poverty level and extreme deprivation in this day and age.

I don't think anyone is competing to prove they are (or were) poorest, but it does prove djen's point that
Definition and perception are two completely different things.

dj the figure of 1.8 million is relative poverty and that is not poverty in my mind. .

I sometimes wonder what is the ongoing effect of our use of credit cards and these awful payday loans. Credit cards give people a distorted view of money, what they own, what they want to own and how much money they actually have etc. My income is way below the £15,000 mentioned, but at least I owe nothing.

Wilma, according to ageuk, over 1.8 million pensioners live in poverty. I wouldn't call that a few.

Well said Wilma

Why does it have to turn into a competition?

I only heard of the phrase virtue signalling for the first time on here the other day, but if I understood it correctly then there's a lot of it on this thread.

I think it's pointless harking back so far back that we're talking about the time before the NHS, Social Services, Social Security, etc. because the level of poverty around then doesn't happen in this day and age.

But some things don't change. Children still recognise the kid in the class who is poor and/or not well cared for by its parent(s). The children who can't go on school trips, even local trips. The children without the correct things for school.

And there are few poor pensioners in this day and age too, not since the government started paying the winter fuel allowances. That doesn't mean that there are not still pensioners who don't turn on the heating, or with a really low income. But they do often have money in the bank they won't touch - and it can stop them claiming Sometimes they say it's because of the stigma because they don't want anyone to know about the money in the bank.

We can discuss this until the cows come home. If you are poor you can make the best of things, but you are still poor and you know it. Same goes for living in poverty. The difference between the two is you can be poor and happy.

oh dear penstemmon I must be culturally rich as a few pounds in my purse means I can buy books from the charity shop, a gift voucher means I can buy some paints or a sketch book. I brought my DD up on visits to the theatre, museums and art galleries, trips to stately homes but I never had a penny for myself, I prioritised expanding our horizons.
Apart from food everything else came second hand. I don't think I was a bad mother.

Totally agree Stansgran

I agree with most of these definitions of poverty, I am on a low income because my work is so variable, sometimes I earn nothing for a week. Therefore I get nothing like the £23,000 quoted above.

I had to live on £73 a week when I was on the sick a few months ago and just couldn't do it, I had to live on my credit card which is now a struggle to pay off so I sympathise with anyone struggling, Christmas has been very hard for me. The thing I cant understand though that almost everyone on benefit can smoke, drink and buy huge amounts of food. I have been in the queue in the supermarket and seen huge amounts of food piled into baskets of people I know are on benefits where I have had to think about every item Ive bought and I don't drink and never have smoked. How do they do it ? Is this the 'new relative poverty' that we hear of

I f you need a job you need the internet. If you haven't got a computer or iPhone or wifi you need to go to a library or a coffee shop . You need bus fares and the money for a coffee. The cost of a coffee in Starbucks appals me (the quality is irrelevant) and bus fares ! Bus fares are expensive relative to income IMO from when I was job hunting.

and there are different types of poverty

I guess the OP was talking about income poverty. Some people on very low incomes have the inner resources to use education, access free cultural experiences etc and enrich their lives. Others are overwhelmed by the stresses and strains of poverty and find it very hard to change their situation and remain poor financially, educationally and culturally.

Equally you can have folk with plenty of income who are financially, educationally and culturally poor.