Cannot believe this bigotry

PS I don't have a problem with arranged marriages, but forced marriages (which are illegal in the UK) I do.

So to Annie", *jen and*Eloethan*, the current spur of this discussion was prompted by me asking if anyone had watched last night's BBC2 documentary Welcome to the Mosque. It is the third documentary by Rob Leech, a former tree surgeon who documented his step-brother Richard's conversion to Islam (^My Brother the Islamist^) and then his subsequent imprisonment for terrorist offences (^My Brother the Terrorist^).

Do you agree with the segregation of male and female Muslims as shown in last night's programme? I certainly agree Rob Leech was welcomed at the mosque and everyone we saw seemed nice and open to his questions. I believed what we were told about the mosques not promoting extremism, not doubting what people said. My concern is mainly about segregation, and discrimination towards female Muslims. I couldn't agree more about the shame on hearing the new generation being targets because of their religion and not the colour of their skin.

Again, though as a lapsed Catholic I would argue that the comparison is not particularly relevant because of the integration aspect. If female Muslim leaders can talk about the rights of Muslim women, why can't we on here without being criticised? I want to know more, be proved wrong, without being flamed.

I've met, and worked with, educated, sophisticated young women from various communities whose marriages were arranged - with their own input. They assured me it was possible to refuse apparently suitable young men after meeting them. In one case she felt comfortable with the prospective bridegroom but much less so with his family.
So young womens' relationships with their parents are, understandably, key to the issue.

Well said Jen and Eloethan , constant criticism is poured on Muslims , they will draw closer together , it's the same as being bullied

My father's family were part of a very small Catholic minority in a Protestant/reformed Canton. All my cousins had arranged (not forced) marriages so they would stay Catholic, and encouraged to have large families.

Excellent post dj, exactly.

The sooner religious schools are got rid off- the better. Allowing segregation via religion is disastrous.

petra Many Muslims - and Hindus - have some form of "arranged" marriage. What I think most people do not approve of are "forced" marriages, which are illegal in this country.

My next door neighbours had an "arranged" marriage in that both their families were involved in making what they thought was a suitable match between their respective son and daughter. From what I see, they have a perfectly happy marriage and the wife is by no means "ruled" by her husband.

I absolutely agree with Anniebach and durhamjen that continually criticising a person's religion and culture is counter-productive. I have several friends who were brought up in strict Catholic environments. Some have upheld those beliefs and practices whilst at least two of them have not. I feel quite sure that had they and their families been subjected to an onslaught of disapproval of their families' and community's religious practices they would have become defensive and, despite some doubts, would have continued with religious practices that they might otherwise have questioned or abandoned.

"The vast majority of people attracted to the ideology of terror, violence and murder suffer from deep social alienation and are psychologically disconnected from mainstream society. A study from the Hoover Institution at Stanford University suggests that among other complex motivations, righting perceived wrongs is a major terrorist motivation.

British documentary film-maker Rob Leach has pointed out that there are many complex reasons why young people, men in particular, are attracted towards Islamic extremism. Many experience deep-rooted ingrained factors of poverty, non-belonging or marginalisation and have a perceived sense of social injustice.

The government is asking teachers, social and youth workers, community leaders and other professionals to take responsibility with these complex and wider societal issues as part of the Prevent strategy. Instead, our already overworked teachers need to be left alone to do what they do best – inspire, engage, motivate, educate and above all, teach."

From someone who has studied Islam.
If we alienate them, what do we expect? If we make them feel unwanted or misunderstood, it's not surprising that they join groups where they feel wanted.

I understand that and accept it. But the key word is Orthodox. The majority of Jews are integrated in UK society. Inside the synagogue men and women sit separately and I have no problem with this. In fact, I can understand the reasoning why this happens. Also Orthodox Jewish courts (Beth Din) are recognised in the UK, but are not allowed to operate a system which does not recognise the equal rights of both spouses. This is not the case with Sharia law because of the inequality between the rights of men and women.

Surely it is essential, if Britain is to remain a society based on equality before the law, that we do not start allowing communities to discriminate against women? Muslim men can be part of British society and Muslim women should be able to be part too.

Petra, yes this is wrong and against the law, but more and more Muslim girls are receiving a better education, more are going to university , with time I do believe some things will change, what happens is some believe forced marriages happen in every Muslim family and it does not . The more we keep criticising their dress etc the more harm we are doing

I think we all agree that we accept 'most' traditions from other peoples.
But I think saying to your Daughter at 16 "If you don't marry your uneducated non English speaking first cousin, I'm going to kill you" taking things a bit far. Moderating my language for the sake of sensibilities.

Wilma, authodox Jews do not allow a woman to invite a man into her home if she is alone, if a friend of mine husband visits his mother in law without his wife he has to remain outside the flat if she is alone , she accepts this, my friend and her husband accept this , it's their tradition

No, his use of the word baggage is not the same as being tied down because the latter does not mean never talking to a woman until they get married.

I don't expect others to live as we do, but I do expect some degree of integration with the wider community and again, I am not sure if this happens for many Muslims. It was clear from the programme that the mosque tries to provide a lot of services like day care and schools. But are these available to the wider community or just Muslims? If everything on your doorstep is in keeping with your religion, what kind of peer pressure is there that stops people engaging with others from outside your community?

I completely agree with your last sentence, but my point is that I am not sure if the law is being upheld. As I said before my concerns are around discrimination and equality legislation.

This is from the BBC website -

What about Sharia and women?

Some Muslim women in Britain are concerned about how their rights are protected. Take marriage for example. Muslims only consider themselves truly married once they have conducted the Islamic ceremony, known as the nikah. In some cases, this means that there is a cultural view that the British civil ceremony, which enforces legal rights under the law, is not important. Some mosques are aware of this issue and now demand to see a marriage certificate as a condition of the nikah. Others do not. Many women want Muslim leaders to do more to ensure their rights are protected under British law...

So women have reservations about Sharia?

Some Muslim women in the West would be worried about protection of their rights in Sharia courts where there is discrimination against them because of patriarchal and cultural control in their communities. This does not mean that they are necessarily opposed to Sharia - only there are concerns about the fairness of its application. It's fair to say that many leading Muslim women are more concerned about how existing British equality measures and human rights laws can be used to improve their position and voice in society.

I do not believe that religion should be the reason the law should not apply to any women in the UK. In fact, apart from religious ceremonies inside mosques, I do not believe in segregation of the sexes has a place in our society.

Why do we demand others live as we do? We keep on about our traditions etc but expect others to abandon theirs.
Did anyone see the programme on at 10 on channel 4 about arranged marriages? This would be one of the traditions I would want them to abandon. I don't think that's asking too much.

I watched the programme, nothing in it troubled me,well I was troubled the young Muslims feel under threat because of their faith as older generations had suffered because of skin colour but nothing else . Why do we demand others live as we do? We keep on about our traditions etc but expect others to abandon theirs . So a young man chooses to say baggage , is this so different to - being tied down ? If people keep within the law and cause no harm why can we not respect their values, traditions etc

I do petra because I meet Muslims outside of the mosque environment and I don't think of them as different.

WilmaknicKersFit. I never have any confusion.

petra it was the normality of it all I found hard to watch and that brought home the cultural aspect. That said, I know many Muslims - male and female - who behave like you or me e.g. in the workplace, so I would like to think what we saw only happens inside the mosque, but it is clear that is not the case. I don't know what to think and my confusion is unsettling.

WilmaknickersFit. Yes I saw it. It only confirmed everything I feel about Muslims. Did you notice, the young man couldn't say the word, sex.
I thought it was hilarious where the woman was put behind the screen in the office but had to pop her head out to see what was on the screen. So Monty python. They really have integrated, haven't they.

I have it recorded will try to watch today and reply

I watched Welcome to the Mosque on BBC2 tonight which is a Rob Leach documentary. I feel more confused than before about the Muslim community in this country.

I was most shocked at some of the things the young males had to say (we heard from few young females). One young guy who is at college and doing work experience/volunteering at the mosque talked about not agreeing about freemixing outside his classes at college. Freemixing is basically men and women talking to each other. He believes it's OK to discuss course work with women on his course, but nothing else. Openly admitting he is conservative Muslim, he believes girl friends/girlfriends are 'baggage' (term apparently in common usage) that can lead to fornication and unplanned pregnancy (I kid you not). He was in no way disrespectful of women, just firm in his belief that he should not talk to women in social situations. It was very strange to hear that from such a young man. Secondary school boys from the school in the mosque complex of buildings were also interviewed. During an Ofsted inspection they had been asked questions about students being radicalised. These boys objected to the line of questioning on the basis that pupils at non-Muslim schools would not be asked about the subject. They didn't seem to get that the source of radical teachings needs to be identified. It's clear the young men think the Imans should publicly denounce the radicalisation of young people, but mosques are reluctant to do this because of how they will be/are being portrayed in the media. I could go on, but I think people should just watch the programme for themselves. But my biggest problem is still the segregation of men and women which is covered in the show. I can't reconcile this with UK anti-discrimination and equal opportunities legislation.

This is a long read but worth it.

theconversationuk.cmail2.com/t/r-l-zlttlyk-iudkikukhu-g/

The government's ideas are not making things easier for British Muslims.

The Syrian government is asking the UN to do its dirty work for it.

In today's i newspaper there is a list of the numbers of civilians killed by various groups.

Government forces 7894
Isis 1131
Armed opposition groups 734
International coalition 125
PYD Kurdish forces 80
Unidentified 381

Obviously Assam thinks the coalition needs to kill more civilians.

act.thesyriacampaign.org/go/160?t=1&akid=260.124249.hj3nmm

Just received this today. Please read it. It's from someone in Syria.

Oh good to make matters even worse if it is possible now Russia is bombing along with USA and France - we are giving it consideration other than drones. How to empty an entire country of its population in one easy lesson. Utter insanity
I mean bombing has been so successful so far hasn't it? IS has gone from strength to strength since we started the bombing.

well, some of my Muslim relatives were the first to do as I asked, and sign the petition to stop Saudis beheading and crucifiying the young political activitist. Few of my Christian friends and family did -

have you?