Refugees

Well a Christian knows only God can forgive , a priest can say ' you are forgiven ' doesn't follow you are if you are telling porkies

I think that is so few for each council, if only they would all agree

Is a priest allowed to say he doesn't believe him, in the case of Blair, for example?
"It might be better for you if you give all your millions to the poor."
Blair must know that by now. He probably knows there's no hope for him in the hereafter so he might as well build up his wealth here.
I wonder what his children think.

Ian Birrell wrote a very moving article in The I yesterday - I can't find the link to post it.

Here are some extracts:

"Eritrea is known as "Africa's North Korea" for its repression, restrictions on daily life and routine use of torture to crush the slightest signs of defiance. The UN has condemned the country's all-pervasive control and systematic human rights violations. .......... The UN in a 500-page report concluded the population is kept in a "permanent state of anxiety and found even those outside the country were scared to testify for fear of repercussions"

"...Meanwhile we witness panicking politicians in Westminster getting ever-tougher towards those termed "economic migrants " or "illegals".

"To understand why their approach is so phoney, delve deeper into the migration statistics ...... Look at the data on Eritreans. This showed just one-third applying for asylum in Britain were given protection between April and June, compared with almost three-quarters in the previous three months. So, given the undiminished intensity of human rights abuses in their homeland, what had changed? Simple: the government moved the goalposts by redifining rules for Eritrean refugees.

"New guidelines issued to civil servants show the Home Office has accepted assurances from Eritrea's ruthless regime that any people returned home would be safe if they signed an apology and paid extra taxes imposed on exiles. [It seems Westminster was only too happy to accept these assurances despite this regime's terrible human rights record and without any way of verifying that those who are forced to return are safe]

"Remember this when politicians talk sanctimoniously about helping "genuine" refugees and defending human rights. Remember this too when they turn fire on "economic migrants" to appease an ugly public mood they have fanned. As the UN says, to use this term in most of these cases is "to ignore the dire situation of human rights in Eritrea and the very real suffering of its people. Eritreans are in need of international protection."

If the priest knows it's a lie he should not extend forgiveness , but he has to know it 's a lie

Perhaps Blair is sorry but I have close friends who are priests and have discussed forgiveness many times over the years, the priest could ask Blair to express his regret to those who suffered , this would be asking him to say publicly he was wrong , the priest chooses the penance and the sinner has to act on it

Thanks for the information about Eritrea Eloethan. I wonder how many of the "fit young men" who are vilified for attempting to reach Europe are from Eritrea, it's an area that hasn't had the publicity needed to help us understand just how bad things are there.

there is an old saying in German: Es gibt nichts Gutes, ausser man tut es!
There is no Good except that which is put into practice.

I think we can leave Christian theology out of the refugee situation. I only know that when asked for help for the refugees, the Germans follow in their thousands. DD2 and friends took a huge sack of disposable nappies and sanitary towels and bits and bobs that women need. The warehouse is now full to overflowing the answer to the appeal was so great. Basically people want to help. Fr Merkel knows this.

The question is where/how to help. There are enormous camps of refugees in many of the surrounding countries. How much help are we giving them - and where is the help coming from? Is it just Europe that's sending aid? Perhaps that's why the men are all aiming for Northern European countries - and not other Middle Eastern ones.

I have just read this on FB. It is worth reading on this thread.
HOME

by Somali poet Warsan Shire

no one leaves home unless
home is the mouth of a shark
you only run for the border
when you see the whole city running as well

your neighbours running faster than you
breath bloody in their throats
the boy you went to school with
who kissed you dizzy behind the old tin factory
is holding a gun bigger than his body
you only leave home
when home won't let you stay.

no one leaves home unless home chases you
fire under feet
hot blood in your belly
it's not something you ever thought of doing
until the blade burnt threats into
your neck
and even then you carried the anthem under
your breath
only tearing up your passport in an airport toilets
sobbing as each mouthful of paper
made it clear that you wouldn't be going back.

you have to understand,
that no one puts their children in a boat
unless the water is safer than the land
no one burns their palms
under trains
beneath carriages
no one spends days and nights in the stomach of a truck
feeding on newspaper unless the miles travelled
means something more than journey.
no one crawls under fences
no one wants to be beaten
pitied

no one chooses refugee camps
or strip searches where your
body is left aching
or prison,
because prison is safer
than a city of fire
and one prison guard
in the night
is better than a truckload
of men who look like your father
no one could take it
no one could stomach it
no one skin would be tough enough

the
go home blacks
refugees
dirty immigrants
asylum seekers
sucking our country dry
niggers with their hands out
they smell strange
savage
messed up their country and now they want
to mess ours up
how do the words
the dirty looks
roll off your backs
maybe because the blow is softer
than a limb torn off

or the words are more tender
than fourteen men between
your legs
or the insults are easier
to swallow
than rubble
than bone
than your child body
in pieces.
i want to go home,
but home is the mouth of a shark
home is the barrel of the gun
and no one would leave home
unless home chased you to the shore
unless home told you
to quicken your legs
leave your clothes behind
crawl through the desert
wade through the oceans
drown
save
be hunger
beg
forget pride
your survival is more important

no one leaves home until home is a sweaty voice in your ear
saying-
leave,
run away from me now
i dont know what i've become
but i know that anywhere
is safer than here.

I am moved to tears by that Nellie - how can we imagine what it must be like? What is the answer? Is there one? I am impotent but my heart goes out to those who have escaped the horrors described.

Thank you Nellie - such a powerful poem.

Nellie, thank you for the poem and for the release of my tears as a read it

I have been having a further think about all of this.

First off. Refugees and migrants are two different things. And this thread is about refugees.
I think the Government, and others obviously, should roughly work out[obviously a very rough guess] how many refugees there might be coming.

Second. Make sure our Government knows current war conditions in the countries the refugees are fleeing from [it already probably does].

Third. May need the EU for this one. Someone, or a committee that is wise, try and set a sensible number for each of the 27 EU countries to take, bearing in mind each individual country's set up.
That would incluse all sorts of things such as, willingness or eagerness to take refugees such as Germany, a country's land size, unemployment, spare capacity in health services, education services, political tensions etc.

Fourth. Then go around to those countries and basically plead.

If there was some sort of visible, and sensible plan, some of the countries[and I would have thought that would include the UK] might go for it.

Obviously there are some holes in the plan above, not least of which may be underestimating numbers, but at least it would be a start.

Sorry, but I still think that migrants should not be included. There are already guidelines for them in each country.

Soontobe who is your neighbour?

Everyone.

By loving someone, you are not expected to have them all to live with you.
In the Old Testament and New Testament, there are all sorts of rules, and nowhere does it say that you are expected to have all countries of the world, or even you 100s of relatives to all live with you in your house or locality.

I'm sorry, but it doesnt.

Equally you are not supposed to walk by and ignore them and not offer help. I think the words of Jesus strongly suggest that we should do everything we can to alleviate suffering. What else is Christianity about?

I think UK is not living up to its nominally 'Christian' culture. We could take more than 5000 Syrian refugees.

The instability that has created this crisis is partly the responsibility of British historical actions in the area. I do not say it is only that but it plays its part.

Nelliemoser - thanks for making me weep.

Soon - I just don't understand your brand of humanity or especially, your brand of Christianity. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, I don't like personalising or being unnecessarily unpleasant or aggressive. I don't claim to be a perfect human being and I've no claim to be a perfect Christian. I simply couldn't take the black and white, simplistic approach to faith or humanity that you appear comfortable with. Do you have no discomfort or disconnect between your avowed faith and the apparent ease with which you dismiss the desperate plight of so many of your fellow human beings.

I know that "economic migrants" aren't asylum seekers or refugees. I don't say that Europe can or should take everyone who wants to leave a poverty stricken 3rd world country and seek their fortune in Europe can be given citizenship. I genuinely struggle with the challenge we all face.

True, and see my suggestion above.
I think we can take 5000 Syrian refugees.

Christianity is about a whole lot more, much more, but this is not the thread to discuss that.

post to Pemstemmon.

5000 Syrian refugees - how on earth do you reach that number soon?

I don't know how many "we" can take, but 5000, it's no where near what other northern european countries are offering safety to. Christianity is surely about love they neighbour and feed the 5000 if nothing else. Their are children starving, drowning and terrified. God forbid my 4 month old grandson and his lovely parents should be in a rubber dinghy, trying to reach the safety of a small Greek island, rather than be blown to smithereens in Syria. I'd sell my soul to help them if that were the case and that's why I'm struggling with my conscience when I send cash rather than offer our spare bedroom to a Syrian family.

With migrants, we all have to be allowed into whatever country. Two of my own children are migrants. They had to go through proper channels. Do I feel bad about that? No. Why should I?

Penstemmon said 5000 Syrian refugees.

Iam64. My post of 17.32pm is about taking in refugees.

Sorry i meat to type MORE than 5000. That is the number we have taken and DC is unwilling to take more. I suggest we could!

I understood we had already take 5000 refugees. At least that's what DC said.

Soons strategy sounds a good one - except that the refugees don't seem to be agreeing with her. They want to decide what country they go to and at the moment that seems to be Germany.