Refugees

not nice, badly behaved ???

Ye gods stb do you have any idea of what it's like in Syria?

No, what I meant was are the refugees we see this week on the news escaping directly from Syria or had they escaped previously and are now leaving the refugee camps? I wasn't sure.

I put that same link on myself on another thread, it explains the situation clearly, thanks for reinforcing it djen.
I honestly don't think that many people realised the scale of the crisis until a few people (and it is a few in comparison) started seeking refuge in Europe.

I was looking at an Australian site whose contributors apparently know a lot about migration and who seem to be trying to tackle some of the misinformation and widespread animosity directed towards immigrants (surprising really since all but the aboriginal Australians are themselves descended from immigrants).

There is reference to the fact that there are millions of refugees across the world and a substantial number of them are stuck in very basic and often fairly squalid refugee camps where they may have spent all their lives and where they are likely to end their lives. It was also pointed out that most refugees are hosted by poor countries. For instance, there are apparently 500,000 in Kenya, 1.7 million in Pakistan, 1 million in Iran and 400,00 in Jordan. Sadly, 1.4 million fled the turmoil in Iraq and are now stranded in the horror that is Syria.

I'm not an expert on migration and I have no immediate knowledge as to why people use the methods they do to leave their countries or indeed why they decide to leave everything they have ever known to undertake perilous journeys with no guarantee of where they will end up. I think an educated guess might be that they are desperate. Many of these people have probably never travelled far or had passports and may not even have birth certificates and other official documentation that we take for granted in this country. If you're living in one of the many areas in Syria that are being bombarded by government forces, American/UK forces, ISIS and possibly other disparate elements, unless you live near a major city which is functioning fairly normally, it is probably almost impossible to obtain these papers and a passport. I also seem to recall that penalties were introduced to prevent airlines from allowing passengers without the proper visas to travel to countries that have strict visa requirements.

Yes eloethan airlines can't take passengers without proper documentation.

Well, here's a challenge to whoever thinks the refugees should hop on a plane and come in via normal routes with their documentation:

Find your paperwork, passports etc (bearing in mind it could be under the rubble of your bombed house)
Find your way through a war zone to the airport
Book yourself a flight from Damascus, Aleppo or wherever, to a safe haven - go on, try to find a flight!
Get through immigration at the destination.

Simple

It is not like hopping on ryanair home from Malaga!

It is time there was some logical and compassionate thinking by politicians.

There are various types of migrants and these need to be kept statistically separate. ie.
1. Economic ones from the EU,
2. Economic ones from the non EU where we should have similar policies to Australia.
3. Then those who are refugees seeking asylum from war torn countries,
4. also Refugees seeking asylum from countries no longer war torn but who helped us i.e. interpreters from Afghanistan, and who now face retribution for sectors of their countrymen i.e the Taliban. and so on.
5. Children who have escaped and lived here now being snet back at the age of 18 to their 'countries of origin'.

We should then make decisions about each type in a humane and responsible way incorporating the relevant UN, EU and other policies as is relevant to the group being considered. At least the Greeks were quite clear that Syrians are refugees from a war and so should be granted asylum. Germany is quite clear that they will fulfil their duties to refugees and grant asylum.

In Calais we should be granting asylum to interpreters that helped us and advising that we will take our quota of Syrians and Eritreians. Then we might consider what we should do with economic migration from Africa. How is it we have supported some of these countries with development funds but never made sure they are spent on infra structure, education, skills teaching and economic growth within the country?

We need to get our act together as a member of the UN and the EU.

We also need to increase apprenticeships in our own country. And it seems we need a more proactive desire to work from some of our own citizens. I am amazed to see, on TV, restaurant owners claiming that they cannot get people to train as curry chefs they want to import them from abroad.

There is such a lot to sort out. Do hope we make some progress soon.

Have just done a bit of reading. Lots for interesting stuff on the internet from the basic exam revision to University written papers. For a selection see below.

www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks3/geography/interdependence/population_migration/revision/6/

Chance or choice? Understanding why asylum seekers come to the UK Heaven Crawley
www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/assets/0001/5702/rcchance.pdf

www3.hants.gov.uk/migration_report_-_copy_for_web.pdf

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/commentary/calais-and-clandestine-migration-uk-concerns-and-context

Nice one Rosequartz. Thank goodness so many people are at last talking about the plight of so many people - not just Syrians - who try to escape torture, conflict, war, injustice, and possible annihilation in their country of origin. I work with asylum seekers and refugees and have never met one who does not miss and feel home-sick for their former lives.
Most (all that I have spoken with) do not aim for Britain, but wish to escape with their lives to a country or region that has a history of being more liberal and is not at war and feels safe. A place that does not hang dissidents from lamp-posts, lock up journalists or 'disappear' those who voice their need for civil rights. Who do not shoot people because they belong to a party in opposition or who belong to a minority culture or religion. Who do not conscript 15 year olds and upwards into the army for an indefinite period (in some cases up to 17 years), who do not outlaw or seek to kill people because of their gender difference or sexuality. We are lucky that we are already here, in Europe.

Right now, we seem to have a surge of evil misappropriation of Islam. This group calling itself Islamic State (D'aesh) has nothing to do with Islam. Neither has the Taliban, nor Al Qa'eda, nor Al Shebab. All are examples of inhuman and oppressive terrorist groups who in the name of a God perpetrate the most vile acts in their own interests, to enslave and rob and gain power over other humans. It has nothing to do with religion. It is about stealing the wealth of the earth, the oil, and minerals and enslaving people. We must not be afraid of them and should open our hearts and arms to people who are escaping from their grip and help them. In a similar situation, we would do the same.
As for so called economic migrants ...who do we mean?

There are organizations that help displaced people to link up with their families, or provide medical care in refugee camps or war zones such as the Red Cross, Unseen (an organization that helps trafficked women and girls), Medecin Sans Frontiers (or Doctors Without Borders ), and there are many other reputable groups who need support. There is also a group that helps to run mercy boats to help save migrants crossing the sea from Libya or elsewhere (can't think of the name right now). Even if we can only help a little bit with a tiny financial contribution, if everyone did it, it would make a difference.
Incidentally, if a father or mother refugee makes it here, he can no longer have legal aid for the costly process to bring his family here legally. Uniting families is no longer given much importance to the Home Office. Traffickers often separate families who unwittingly travel with them, men from women & children, and if they refuse to travel they may be threatened with guns. The journey can be a nightmare in itself. It is believed that much of the trafficking/people smuggling is funded or run by one or other of the above terrorist organizations.

God, I have gone on a bit, haven't I ?! It's just that my heart is nigh on breaking.

Nice one Rosequartz. Thank goodness so many people are at last talking about the plight of so many people - not just Syrians - who try to escape torture, conflict, war, injustice, and possible annihilation in their country of origin. I work with asylum seekers and refugees and have never met one who does not miss and feel home-sick for their former lives.
Most (all that I have spoken with) do not aim for Britain, but wish to escape with their lives to a country or region that has a history of being more liberal and is not at war and feels safe. A place that does not hang dissidents from lamp-posts, lock up journalists or 'disappear' those who voice their need for civil rights. Who do not shoot people because they belong to a party in opposition or who belong to a minority culture or religion. Who do not conscript 15 year olds and upwards into the army for an indefinite period (in some cases up to 17 years), who do not outlaw or seek to kill people because of their gender difference or sexuality. We are lucky that we are already here, in Europe.

Right now, we seem to have a surge of evil misappropriation of Islam. This group calling itself Islamic State (D'aesh) has nothing to do with Islam. Neither has the Taliban, nor Al Qa'eda, nor Al Shebab. All are examples of inhuman and oppressive terrorist groups who in the name of a God perpetrate the most vile acts in their own interests, to enslave and rob and gain power over other humans. It has nothing to do with religion. It is about stealing the wealth of the earth, the oil, and minerals and enslaving people. We must not be afraid of them and should open our hearts and arms to people who are escaping from their grip and help them. In a similar situation, we would do the same.
As for so called economic migrants ...who do we mean?

There are organizations that help displaced people to link up with their families, or provide medical care in refugee camps or war zones such as the Red Cross, Unseen (an organization that helps trafficked women and girls), Medecin Sans Frontiers (or Doctors Without Borders ), and there are many other reputable groups who need support. There is also a group that helps to run mercy boats to help save migrants crossing the sea from Libya or elsewhere (can't think of the name right now). Even if we can only help a little bit with a tiny financial contribution, if everyone did it, it would make a difference.
Incidentally, if a father or mother refugee makes it here, he can no longer have legal aid for the costly process to bring his family here legally. Uniting families is no longer given much importance to the Home Office. Traffickers often separate families who unwittingly travel with them, men from women & children, and if they refuse to travel they may be threatened with guns. The journey can be a nightmare in itself. It is believed that much of the trafficking/people smuggling is funded or run by one or other of the above terrorist organizations.

God, I have gone on a bit, haven't I ?! It's just that my heart is nigh on breaking.

Nice one Rosequartz. Thank goodness so many people are at last talking about the plight of so many people - not just Syrians - who try to escape torture, conflict, war, injustice, and possible annihilation in their country of origin. I work with asylum seekers and refugees and have never met one who does not miss and feel home-sick for their former lives.
Most (all that I have spoken with) do not aim for Britain, but wish to escape with their lives to a country or region that has a history of being more liberal and is not at war and feels safe. A place that does not hang dissidents from lamp-posts, lock up journalists or 'disappear' those who voice their need for civil rights. Who do not shoot people because they belong to a party in opposition or who belong to a minority culture or religion. Who do not conscript 15 year olds and upwards into the army for an indefinite period (in some cases up to 17 years), who do not outlaw or seek to kill people because of their gender difference or sexuality. We are lucky that we are already here, in Europe.

Right now, we seem to have a surge of evil misappropriation of Islam. This group calling itself Islamic State (D'aesh) has nothing to do with Islam. Neither has the Taliban, nor Al Qa'eda, nor Al Shebab. All are examples of inhuman and oppressive terrorist groups who in the name of a God perpetrate the most vile acts in their own interests, to enslave and rob and gain power over other humans. It has nothing to do with religion. It is about stealing the wealth of the earth, the oil, and minerals and enslaving people. We must not be afraid of them and should open our hearts and arms to people who are escaping from their grip and help them. In a similar situation, we would do the same.
As for so called economic migrants ...who do we mean?

There are organizations that help displaced people to link up with their families, or provide medical care in refugee camps or war zones such as the Red Cross, Unseen (an organization that helps trafficked women and girls), Medecin Sans Frontiers (or Doctors Without Borders ), and there are many other reputable groups who need support. There is also a group that helps to run mercy boats to help save migrants crossing the sea from Libya or elsewhere (can't think of the name right now). Even if we can only help a little bit with a tiny financial contribution, if everyone did it, it would make a difference.
Incidentally, if a father or mother refugee makes it here, he can no longer have legal aid for the costly process to bring his family here legally. Uniting families is no longer given much importance to the Home Office. Traffickers often separate families who unwittingly travel with them, men from women & children, and if they refuse to travel they may be threatened with guns. The journey can be a nightmare in itself. It is believed that much of the trafficking/people smuggling is funded or run by one or other of the above terrorist organizations.

God, I have gone on a bit, haven't I ?! It's just that my heart is nigh on breaking.

Nice one Rosequartz. Thank goodness so many people are at last talking about the plight of so many people - not just Syrians - who try to escape torture, conflict, war, injustice, and possible annihilation in their country of origin. I work with asylum seekers and refugees and have never met one who does not miss and feel home-sick for their former lives.
Most (all that I have spoken with) do not aim for Britain, but wish to escape with their lives to a country or region that has a history of being more liberal and is not at war and feels safe. A place that does not hang dissidents from lamp-posts, lock up journalists or 'disappear' those who voice their need for civil rights. Who do not shoot people because they belong to a party in opposition or who belong to a minority culture or religion. Who do not conscript 15 year olds and upwards into the army for an indefinite period (in some cases up to 17 years), who do not outlaw or seek to kill people because of their gender difference or sexuality. We are lucky that we are already here, in Europe.

Right now, we seem to have a surge of evil misappropriation of Islam. This group calling itself Islamic State (D'aesh) has nothing to do with Islam. Neither has the Taliban, nor Al Qa'eda, nor Al Shebab. All are examples of inhuman and oppressive terrorist groups who in the name of a God perpetrate the most vile acts in their own interests, to enslave and rob and gain power over other humans. It has nothing to do with religion. It is about stealing the wealth of the earth, the oil, and minerals and enslaving people. We must not be afraid of them and should open our hearts and arms to people who are escaping from their grip and help them. In a similar situation, we would do the same.
As for so called economic migrants ...who do we mean?

There are organizations that help displaced people to link up with their families, or provide medical care in refugee camps or war zones such as the Red Cross, Unseen (an organization that helps trafficked women and girls), Medecin Sans Frontiers (or Doctors Without Borders ), and there are many other reputable groups who need support. There is also a group that helps to run mercy boats to help save migrants crossing the sea from Libya or elsewhere (can't think of the name right now). Even if we can only help a little bit with a tiny financial contribution, if everyone did it, it would make a difference.
Incidentally, if a father or mother refugee makes it here, he can no longer have legal aid for the costly process to bring his family here legally. Uniting families is no longer given much importance to the Home Office. Traffickers often separate families who unwittingly travel with them, men from women & children, and if they refuse to travel they may be threatened with guns. The journey can be a nightmare in itself. It is believed that much of the trafficking/people smuggling is funded or run by one or other of the above terrorist organizations.

God, I have gone on a bit, haven't I ?! It's just that my heart is nigh on breaking.

Nice one Rosequartz. Thank goodness so many people are at last talking about the plight of so many people - not just Syrians - who try to escape torture, conflict, war, injustice, and possible annihilation in their country of origin. I work with asylum seekers and refugees and have never met one who does not miss and feel home-sick for their former lives.
Most (all that I have spoken with) do not aim for Britain, but wish to escape with their lives to a country or region that has a history of being more liberal and is not at war and feels safe. A place that does not hang dissidents from lamp-posts, lock up journalists or 'disappear' those who voice their need for civil rights. Who do not shoot people because they belong to a party in opposition or who belong to a minority culture or religion. Who do not conscript 15 year olds and upwards into the army for an indefinite period (in some cases up to 17 years), who do not outlaw or seek to kill people because of their gender difference or sexuality. We are lucky that we are already here, in Europe.

Right now, we seem to have a surge of evil misappropriation of Islam. This group calling itself Islamic State (D'aesh) has nothing to do with Islam. Neither has the Taliban, nor Al Qa'eda, nor Al Shebab. All are examples of inhuman and oppressive terrorist groups who in the name of a God perpetrate the most vile acts in their own interests, to enslave and rob and gain power over other humans. It has nothing to do with religion. It is about stealing the wealth of the earth, the oil, and minerals and enslaving people. We must not be afraid of them and should open our hearts and arms to people who are escaping from their grip and help them. In a similar situation, we would do the same.
As for so called economic migrants ...who do we mean?

There are organizations that help displaced people to link up with their families, or provide medical care in refugee camps or war zones such as the Red Cross, Unseen (an organization that helps trafficked women and girls), Medecin Sans Frontiers (or Doctors Without Borders ), and there are many other reputable groups who need support. There is also a group that helps to run mercy boats to help save migrants crossing the sea from Libya or elsewhere (can't think of the name right now). Even if we can only help a little bit with a tiny financial contribution, if everyone did it, it would make a difference.
Incidentally, if a father or mother refugee makes it here, he can no longer have legal aid for the costly process to bring his family here legally. Uniting families is no longer given much importance to the Home Office. Traffickers often separate families who unwittingly travel with them, men from women & children, and if they refuse to travel they may be threatened with guns. The journey can be a nightmare in itself. It is believed that much of the trafficking/people smuggling is funded or run by one or other of the above terrorist organizations.

God, I have gone on a bit, haven't I ?! It's just that my heart is nigh on breaking.

Well said, naninofear. Don't apologise for 'going on a bit'. What you have to say needs to be heard. It's appalling that the Government is led by the nose by a certain section of the press who use 'migrants' as a derogatory term for those desperate people who risk everything to reach a country where (they believe) their rights will be protected.

nano but get your point

Thanks naninofear. This reminds me of the stories of those people fleeing persecution in the second world war and other uprisings and invasions, leaving their homes and belongings to escape to safety. It's tragic to think that many of these refugees will disappear without trace. We need to do our bit and accept some level of sacrifice to help. It's what we would want if we were in that position. The exploitation by traffikers of these desperate people and their resulting deaths at sea or in suffocating lorries is shameful, amounting to war crime.

You've made dome very valid points Emily

I agree we need to differentiate between economic migrants, refugees, etc.. We also need to widen the categories to include nurses and other shortage areas. Though why we can't train and retain more home grown nurses, chefs, etc I can't for the life of me see.

We can, but there will be a gap between sending home those not earning £35,000 and the new intake, who will then immediately emigrate for better pay and conditions, and not to be slagged off by Jeremy Hunt.

Never miss an excuse to be negative eh?

Re nurses and doctors qualifying then beggaring off for the land of milk and honey, this has to be stamped on. If this country has paid for them to qualify then they ought to have an incentive to stay for a few years at least. Perhaps some easing of their student debts on a pro-rata basis.

As far as training chefs go, especially those who bring us curries and the like, it seems to me that all the children of my Asian acquaintances are not following their parents into catering but qualifying as doctors, nurses and dentists (.who then begger off for better pay and conditions).

My favroutie Balti house will now be in the same position as my local hospital

I blame the Tory's Tories and hope JC can rectify both situations ODQ.

Interesting perspective by one phone-in correspondent on BBC Radio 4 / Any Answers programme today (29/08/15) viz. that this is a Global tragedy.Whilst the UK is more or less overpopulated within the limits of its Islands-Canada/Mongolia/the Russian steppes although no comparison in land size-have less population.Could not the UN get willing countries together to form an effective strategy in order to "share out" these unfortunates in an equally proportionate way?

I am not very knowledgeable or as articulate as some of you but I just know that imagining what it must be like in the countries where most migrants come from and also how terrified the folk in the lorry must have been, makes my stomach churn and my heart ache. A two year old was among them. I don't know how to stop these horrors happening but I wonder how the lorry driver and the trafficker can sleep at night.

The pictures of the refugee children who have drowned lying dead on the beach, although gruesome, ought to get maximum publicity because that is the reality of what is happening. I am going to find it hard to get the image out of my head of a toddler - around the same age as my beloved granddaughter - dressed only in a disposable nappy lying on the sand. I could never understand how the concentration camps during WW2 happened but the whole world is sitting and letting this happen in the same way. Deeply depressing.

Naninofear- what an excellent post, thank you.

Nvella, those picture will haunt us all, of whatever political persuasion I hope. And thos of a mother trying to keep her baby above water as she tries to swim, and the father crying his eyes out, with sheer terror in his eyes, holding his 2 little children in a boat.

Most of us come from persecution of one sort or another from 1, 2 or many more generations before- be it Huguenot, Irish famine, Jews and 100s more- and we perhaps forget this too easily. And how many of our families were economic migrants too.

Difficult to be positive about this government's plans, Anya. They are the ones who are causing the crisis by making new regulations on the hoof.
Positively agree with you about Jeremy Corbyn, by the way.

ODQ?

I wonder if anyone contributing to this thread is interesting in signing petitions. I paste and example of one for interpreters below. I feel I should do more than sign but when I do I feel that at least the persons who are being active can go to authorities with numbers and so perhaps I have then played a small part.

Example this one from General the Lord Dannatt:

I was Head of the British Army, including when our troops were serving in Afghanistan. In my role as Chief of the General Staff I worked to make sure our soldiers had the support they needed to do their job. Today I am speaking up for those who stood alongside our soldiers -- interpreters.

Afghan interpreters went on patrols with our troops and enabled them to communicate with the local people. We could not have done the job without them.

That's why I'm asking you to support this petition started by an Afghanistan veteran, calling for Afghan interpreters to be given protection by the British Government.

We have a moral obligation to look after these people. They often wore our uniforms. If they feel, once we have left their country, that they cannot assume their normal lives because of fear having worked for British forces, then it is our obligation to have them in this country.

We cannot leave and walk away and leave them to it, we owe them far more than that.

That's why I have signed Major James Driscoll's petition asking the Government to grant protection to all Afghan interpreters who put their lives at risk to work with us. I urge you to do the same.

Thank you,
General the Lord Dannatt

Sign the petition

www.change.org/p/david-cameron-mp-protect-all-afghan-interpreters-who-served-with-british-troops?utm_source=action_alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=379732&alert_id=XiRnmKBmsf_pyAHxdMNsXWNtiBvVSZOCA6C%2FONnnNXHXkrYI9DUfVU%3D