Refugees

Many years ago, I sat with an immigrant friend (Turkish originally but multilingual and of very mixed ancestry), who predicted exactly what has happened following the invasion of Iraq and more pertinently what is happening now with the rise and rise of extremist Islamism.

Jingl's comment about the Arab Spring is a pertinent one. I have always been uneasy about interfering militarily in cultures we cannot fully understand, as we do not know what we might unleash.

It is effectively a civil war in Syria, with the additional complication of ISIS. plus the anti-Assad groups that have aligned themselves with ISIS, as well as groups that have aligned themselves with the US or the Kurds. It is a total mess and I can't see what benefit is to be gained by further bombing which, despite what governments say, cannot be strategically targeted to avoid citizens being killed and horribly injured and which will cause further damage to water and sewage systems, roads and all the day-to-day amenities that we take for granted.

There is no way you can compare this situation to Britain's situation during WW2. Britain was united against an external enemy, not divided by civil war.

I don't think ethel has asked pertinent questions. Most of the issues she raises have already been covered in previous posts. "Stay and fight" for instance - for and against whom - Assad's forces/those opposed to Assad/ISIS/the Kurds/the US forces?

The issue of how some of the refugees are dressed has also been covered. Because you have a bit of money, some decent clothes and a nice house doesn't make you immune from being bombed or being caught up in gunfire between opposing militias.

It's harder now. We should have done more at the outset.

But we've got to stop this war! Am I the only one who thinks the Arab Spring would never have started if we hadn't gone to war over some non-existent WMDs. I can't see that the Arab Spring has benefitted anyone.

The father who went back to Syria to bury his family, and wants to stay with them is now living in a city where 70% of the buildings are in ruins, and now the British are talking about bombing Syria some more?
Is it not in ruins enough as it is?

You don't have to be penniless or dressed in rags to want your family and yourself to lead a normal peaceful life. These are decent people. They didn't bring the war on themselves.

I've seen plenty of women amongst them. Very brave I think they are too. As well as desperate.

Agree with that. And Londoners were able to safely evacuate their children.

I think the people mentioned in SPF's post were probably economic migrants, not refugees. And maybe they were just after what they could get. Refugees would probably have a different outlook.

rosequartz , Ethel's questions are confusing, during the war we were armed, we were not under gunfire and bombs all day and night, we did not have poison gas to cope with. Children in cities and towns which were targeted were placed in safe parts of the country, there are no safe parts of Syria to flee to. Many wealthy British fled to America, but why on earth would the people in this country have fled to Germany ?

There is no comparison between the blitz in this country and what is happening in Syria

ethel has asked some pertinent questions which I am sure a lot of people are asking, and no-one has actually answered with any real knowledge as yet.

Goodgrief Etheltbags what planet are you on? In case you missed it first time around this is what Syria looks like right now.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=syrian+civil+war&biw=1138&bih=500&tbm=isch&imgil=M5rgENFagvqBKM%253A%253BJUHBfWblDRKOyM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fgeopoliticsmadesuper.com%25252F2015%25252F07%25252F27%25252Fthe-short-history-of-the-mess-that-is-syria%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=M5rgENFagvqBKM%253A%252CJUHBfWblDRKOyM%252C_&usg=__mm4mS3UNzQJ2wTLk_tY4X1zMPkE%3D#imgrc=M5rgENFagvqBKM%3A&usg=__mm4mS3UNzQJ2wTLk_tY4X1zMPkE%3D

Would you like to choose an empty house and stay and fight? There are plenty available. These images make pictures of the London blitzed properties look like a holiday camp. Never mind the poison gas etc inhabitants of some places were subjected to.

What an extraordinary obnoxious comment to make and who the hell (excuse my French) do you think you are, telling others they are ignorant and which newspapers to read or not read for that matter? Utterly unbelievable…!! In addition, as if once wasn’t bad enough, we’ve got the same despicable comment five times.

As rosequartz sensibly observed, this thread has deteriorated into mean derogatory retorts, and I'm sure I'm as guilty as everyone else.

It would seem we are all doomed if, at our wise age, we can't even have a civilised exchange of opinions.

I do not think it matters how late some might have come to understanding the situation in Syria - better late than never.

That's OK anniebach
I think we are all getting upset by the situation.

Avoid papers like the Mail and Express which tend to give brief shallow sensational reports with pictures
Actually, naninofear there was a very good unbiased report by Sue Reid, telling about the situation re the traffickers and the desperate refugees in the Mail the other day. Of course, the online version has photos which the report in the newspaper did not, it was just factual and very chilling.

Thousands of pounds are being paid to these traffickers (taking advantage of their own people) for places in little rubber dinghies - the type bought by parents for their children to use for fun . They are overloaded and pushed off out to sea, terrified.

The Guardian is never biased, of course, interesting that you recommend that she read that.

Seems I did rosequartz, sorry, I know you have spoken many times of helping the refugees. I think we are all now so distressed at this appalling human suffering and appalling human indifference and we feel so helpless . I admit I was tired last night and reading the refugees called 'these people' was just so cruel. All the poster accused them of doing - the British do to.

How rude to accuseetheltbags of inexcusable ignorance. Who appointed you the spokesman of GN and the one to tell people which newspapers to read ?
I lived in an Industrial town that was heavily bombed during the war and nobody that we knew were evacuated. The first person to die in an air raid, in our town, was my Father's cousin and sadly he was the warden who had to attend.

Ethel, the children of London and other cities who were blitzed were rehomed in safe parts of this country . London is not the UK it is one city in the UK .

They were classed refugees too

Annie I think you are misinterpreting what I said.
And probably that was my frustration boiling over at reading some of the posts.
OK - I don't think some of what has been posted is helpful - is that better?
And I have been posting about helping Syrian refugees for a very long time.

Oh dear ethelteabags1! I feel shocked (although why should I be?) by what on some level is to me inexcusable ignorance. However you ask to be better informed. I wonder what newspapers you read and whether you might do better to change to something that gives better reportage. Coverage in the Financial Times is one of the most accurate, ditto the Guardian. You could also subscribe to New Internationalist - a humanitarian journal, or donate to Amnesty international which I think would mean you will periodically receive news of other peoples and countries in a person centred way. Avoid papers like the Mail and Express which tend to give brief shallow sensational reports with pictures. There are also books and evening classes. You obviously have a computer so you might try googling and following threads this might lead you to groups in your local area. You could also try your local church or place of religious worship, take your plea to your local library, look up your local Amnesty group and make some friends, and join.

As for the points you raise: Many (though not all) refugees are middle class, professional people who may have fallen foul of both the government and d'aesh (the group that calls itself Islamic state). Their country is bombed, homes and livelinhoods lost and families torn apart. They start off with good clothes and probably have prepared for their journey. They may also have been given clothes. Goodness knows how they deal with cash. There are many ways of concealing cash, within the body and in unusual places in clothing. Yes, dangerous. I don't know what you mean about where are the women and children. I have seen plenty. The men tend to be standing up demonstrating while most women are in the back somewhere trying to look after their children...that is if they haven't been killed, abducted, raped, sold by d'aesh. Also, you try swimming in long heavy garments ...

In the last war we sent our children out to the countryside when our towns were bombed, but we haven't been invaded since about 1066 so apart from migrating ourselves to the antipodes or spain, etc. for health and relaxation or economic reasons, I guess you are right. I'm doubtful that demonstrates much in the way of internal strength or value however.

We are lucky , in this country, to have endured such a long period of relative peace and to live in a safer country than many enjoy. I hope this lasts. Many of us go through periods of complacency but it is time to wake up and help.

I find the suffering of all the Syrian refugees painful - more so because of the rejection they must feel because of the attitudes of many of us in Europe. The pictures, the unbearable pictures of that little 3 year old drowned child have caused us all pain and woken up a lot of people, thank goodness. In that sense, however shocking a fact it is in itself (his death) let it not be in vain. Help somehow. Send aid. Inform yourself.

Oh dear ethelteabags1! I feel shocked (although why should I be?) by what on some level is to me inexcusable ignorance. However you ask to be better informed. I wonder what newspapers you read and whether you might do better to change to something that gives better reportage. Coverage in the Financial Times is one of the most accurate, ditto the Guardian. You could also subscribe to New Internationalist - a humanitarian journal, or donate to Amnesty international which I think would mean you will periodically receive news of other peoples and countries in a person centred way. Avoid papers like the Mail and Express which tend to give brief shallow sensational reports with pictures. There are also books and evening classes. You obviously have a computer so you might try googling and following threads this might lead you to groups in your local area. You could also try your local church or place of religious worship, take your plea to your local library, look up your local Amnesty group and make some friends, and join.

As for the points you raise: Many (though not all) refugees are middle class, professional people who may have fallen foul of both the government and d'aesh (the group that calls itself Islamic state). Their country is bombed, homes and livelinhoods lost and families torn apart. They start off with good clothes and probably have prepared for their journey. They may also have been given clothes. Goodness knows how they deal with cash. There are many ways of concealing cash, within the body and in unusual places in clothing. Yes, dangerous. I don't know what you mean about where are the women and children. I have seen plenty. The men tend to be standing up demonstrating while most women are in the back somewhere trying to look after their children...that is if they haven't been killed, abducted, raped, sold by d'aesh. Also, you try swimming in long heavy garments ...

In the last war we sent our children out to the countryside when our towns were bombed, but we haven't been invaded since about 1066 so apart from migrating ourselves to the antipodes or spain, etc. for health and relaxation or economic reasons, I guess you are right. I'm doubtful that demonstrates much in the way of internal strength or value however.

We are lucky , in this country, to have endured such a long period of relative peace and to live in a safer country than many enjoy. I hope this lasts. Many of us go through periods of complacency but it is time to wake up and help.

I find the suffering of all the Syrian refugees painful - more so because of the rejection they must feel because of the attitudes of many of us in Europe. The pictures, the unbearable pictures of that little 3 year old drowned child have caused us all pain and woken up a lot of people, thank goodness. In that sense, however shocking a fact it is in itself (his death) let it not be in vain. Help somehow. Send aid. Inform yourself.

Oh dear ethelteabags1! I feel shocked (although why should I be?) by what on some level is to me inexcusable ignorance. However you ask to be better informed. I wonder what newspapers you read and whether you might do better to change to something that gives better reportage. Coverage in the Financial Times is one of the most accurate, ditto the Guardian. You could also subscribe to New Internationalist - a humanitarian journal, or donate to Amnesty international which I think would mean you will periodically receive news of other peoples and countries in a person centred way. Avoid papers like the Mail and Express which tend to give brief shallow sensational reports with pictures. There are also books and evening classes. You obviously have a computer so you might try googling and following threads this might lead you to groups in your local area. You could also try your local church or place of religious worship, take your plea to your local library, look up your local Amnesty group and make some friends, and join.

As for the points you raise: Many (though not all) refugees are middle class, professional people who may have fallen foul of both the government and d'aesh (the group that calls itself Islamic state). Their country is bombed, homes and livelinhoods lost and families torn apart. They start off with good clothes and probably have prepared for their journey. They may also have been given clothes. Goodness knows how they deal with cash. There are many ways of concealing cash, within the body and in unusual places in clothing. Yes, dangerous. I don't know what you mean about where are the women and children. I have seen plenty. The men tend to be standing up demonstrating while most women are in the back somewhere trying to look after their children...that is if they haven't been killed, abducted, raped, sold by d'aesh. Also, you try swimming in long heavy garments ...

In the last war we sent our children out to the countryside when our towns were bombed, but we haven't been invaded since about 1066 so apart from migrating ourselves to the antipodes or spain, etc. for health and relaxation or economic reasons, I guess you are right. I'm doubtful that demonstrates much in the way of internal strength or value however.

We are lucky , in this country, to have endured such a long period of relative peace and to live in a safer country than many enjoy. I hope this lasts. Many of us go through periods of complacency but it is time to wake up and help.

I find the suffering of all the Syrian refugees painful - more so because of the rejection they must feel because of the attitudes of many of us in Europe. The pictures, the unbearable pictures of that little 3 year old drowned child have caused us all pain and woken up a lot of people, thank goodness. In that sense, however shocking a fact it is in itself (his death) let it not be in vain. Help somehow. Send aid. Inform yourself.

Oh dear ethelteabags1! I feel shocked (although why should I be?) by what on some level is to me inexcusable ignorance. However you ask to be better informed. I wonder what newspapers you read and whether you might do better to change to something that gives better reportage. Coverage in the Financial Times is one of the most accurate, ditto the Guardian. You could also subscribe to New Internationalist - a humanitarian journal, or donate to Amnesty international which I think would mean you will periodically receive news of other peoples and countries in a person centred way. Avoid papers like the Mail and Express which tend to give brief shallow sensational reports with pictures. There are also books and evening classes. You obviously have a computer so you might try googling and following threads this might lead you to groups in your local area. You could also try your local church or place of religious worship, take your plea to your local library, look up your local Amnesty group and make some friends, and join.

As for the points you raise: Many (though not all) refugees are middle class, professional people who may have fallen foul of both the government and d'aesh (the group that calls itself Islamic state). Their country is bombed, homes and livelinhoods lost and families torn apart. They start off with good clothes and probably have prepared for their journey. They may also have been given clothes. Goodness knows how they deal with cash. There are many ways of concealing cash, within the body and in unusual places in clothing. Yes, dangerous. I don't know what you mean about where are the women and children. I have seen plenty. The men tend to be standing up demonstrating while most women are in the back somewhere trying to look after their children...that is if they haven't been killed, abducted, raped, sold by d'aesh. Also, you try swimming in long heavy garments ...

In the last war we sent our children out to the countryside when our towns were bombed, but we haven't been invaded since about 1066 so apart from migrating ourselves to the antipodes or spain, etc. for health and relaxation or economic reasons, I guess you are right. I'm doubtful that demonstrates much in the way of internal strength or value however.

We are lucky , in this country, to have endured such a long period of relative peace and to live in a safer country than many enjoy. I hope this lasts. Many of us go through periods of complacency but it is time to wake up and help.

I find the suffering of all the Syrian refugees painful - more so because of the rejection they must feel because of the attitudes of many of us in Europe. The pictures, the unbearable pictures of that little 3 year old drowned child have caused us all pain and woken up a lot of people, thank goodness. In that sense, however shocking a fact it is in itself (his death) let it not be in vain. Help somehow. Send aid. Inform yourself.

Oh dear ethelteabags1! I feel shocked (although why should I be?) by what on some level is to me inexcusable ignorance. However you ask to be better informed. I wonder what newspapers you read and whether you might do better to change to something that gives better reportage. Coverage in the Financial Times is one of the most accurate, ditto the Guardian. You could also subscribe to New Internationalist - a humanitarian journal, or donate to Amnesty international which I think would mean you will periodically receive news of other peoples and countries in a person centred way. Avoid papers like the Mail and Express which tend to give brief shallow sensational reports with pictures. There are also books and evening classes. You obviously have a computer so you might try googling and following threads this might lead you to groups in your local area. You could also try your local church or place of religious worship, take your plea to your local library, look up your local Amnesty group and make some friends, and join.

As for the points you raise: Many (though not all) refugees are middle class, professional people who may have fallen foul of both the government and d'aesh (the group that calls itself Islamic state). Their country is bombed, homes and livelinhoods lost and families torn apart. They start off with good clothes and probably have prepared for their journey. They may also have been given clothes. Goodness knows how they deal with cash. There are many ways of concealing cash, within the body and in unusual places in clothing. Yes, dangerous. I don't know what you mean about where are the women and children. I have seen plenty. The men tend to be standing up demonstrating while most women are in the back somewhere trying to look after their children...that is if they haven't been killed, abducted, raped, sold by d'aesh. Also, you try swimming in long heavy garments ...

In the last war we sent our children out to the countryside when our towns were bombed, but we haven't been invaded since about 1066 so apart from migrating ourselves to the antipodes or spain, etc. for health and relaxation or economic reasons, I guess you are right. I'm doubtful that demonstrates much in the way of internal strength or value however.

We are lucky , in this country, to have endured such a long period of relative peace and to live in a safer country than many enjoy. I hope this lasts. Many of us go through periods of complacency but it is time to wake up and help.

I find the suffering of all the Syrian refugees painful - more so because of the rejection they must feel because of the attitudes of many of us in Europe. The pictures, the unbearable pictures of that little 3 year old drowned child have caused us all pain and woken up a lot of people, thank goodness. In that sense, however shocking a fact it is in itself (his death) let it not be in vain. Help somehow. Send aid. Inform yourself.