Refugees

www.unhcr.org/55e9459f6.html

A statement from Gutteres, High Commissioner for UNHCR.
I agree with him; it's no use working piecemeal, it's a Europe-wide problem, and should be determined by working with all countries in Europe.
As long as Cameron carries on trying to work on his own, just dealing with Syria, the rest of Europe will not get together.

Joelsnan. I am following your posts with great interest. I too believe that for some tribal societies a benevolent dictator who is not corrupt, enables people from different tribes and religions to live together in a peaceful stable society, with a focus on public welfare and infrastructure is for some countries the best option.

The other option is philosopher king, where the king is also the head of the religion and a reformer.

I consider that the west is far to focused on democracy as the only form of government.

We would need a new thread for this and I am just about to leave for Australia to see my son & his family and my sister and hers.

So may not post so often.

Just been said on news24 that Cameron expected to say he will take in more than 10,000.

Margaret X

Thank you for your reply.

It is nothing to do with being right or wrong it is a case of understanding another's view hopefully without acrimony .

Joelsnan

Thank you for your reply.

ok POGS a bit long winded your post but I give up. Sorry I said that about being an island. You are right I'm sure.

Who is she?

POGS
The societies in this region are built on strong Paternalistic ideals in terms of culture and religion. As with any family (tribe) there are those within who will accept this male dominance and those who will rebel. Assad's father, although from a minority sect (same for Sadam Hussein) did manage to bring some relative peace to the country by suppressing the most voiciferous larger factions and enabling the smaller communities, Christians, Druze etc to cohabit. As far as I can see democracy could never be achieved because the largest group of freedom fighters are Sunni Muslims who do not recognise as valid any other form of Islam or indeed any other religion, so toppling Assad would probably ultimately lead to an even less democratic and more controlled Wasabi type environment.

I would imagine those fleeing at the moment would be supporters of the dictatorial, yet pluralistic Assad regime.

We in the west have come a long and rough road to some semblance of democracy. We cannot impose democracy on states that still strongly embrace paternalism. Had the west not enabled the overthrow of these dictators I would imagine that these societies would have remained fairly stable, but yes with the brutal suppression of factions trying to become the most dominant force.

joelsnan good post and I take your point about 'strong' leaders, however who can forget the gassing of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein, their trek over the mountains, some without shoes (Clarks shoe shops had a campaign to donate our children's good outgrown shoes I remember).
Sadly I believe the two little boys and their mother who drowned last week were Kurdish, still being persecuted.

Yes, that Katie Hopkins, sounds like a good swap! But would they want her?

Katie Hopkins?

I have just seen something on fb about a petition to swap Katie Hopkins for 50, 000 Syrian refugees. I know this is a serious situation and not a joking matter, but 10, 000 signatures in 24 hours shows how people feel!

Joelsnan

I fully understand how countries such as Syria, Libya, Iraq are formed and as I never mentioned the problem as a religious issue only I don't understand why you are pointing this out to me.

I find your post very thoughtful so may I 'respectfully' ask you this question.

You said " There has always been inter tribal tension and conflict and this has been contained by a strong 'dictator' . Remove this control and we have the consequences throughout the Middle East"

In your opinion do you believe that Assad is the best choice for peace in Syria and equally if Saddam Husein and Gaddafi were still the 'dictators' of Iraq and Libya there would be peace today in those countries also.

As for your last 2 paragraphs I couldn't agree more and have said much the same .

I notice that George Osborne is still talking about "protecting the national interest" in the refugee crisis. The man has no heart.

Margaret X

POGS

'The reason the UK has not been invaded is because it is an island. Not because of the bravery of it's people. Continental people were extremely brave"

Sorry but I don't think anything other than the people of the UK were brave , just as I believe there were brave people on the continent of Europe, India, Nepal, Australia etc. I don't know why you made such a comment to be honest.

If you read my post I mentioned the fact that many refugees once in the UK joined our forces to fight alongside us, I said we (Britain) joined with allies to beat Nazi Germany and it's allies.

What I NEVER said was, to use your words, 'continental people ' were not brave. What a ridiculous comment that would be.

As for referring to WW 11 I was responding to previous posts that introduced WW11 to the thread I did not instigate it into the thread.

As for being an island it is obviously more difficult to invade a country which is an island as opposed to landlocked countries . If people didn't fight to protect it from invasion then we would have been invaded for sure. It is stating the obvious really.

I don't really understand your point other than you feel upset and feeling I was somehow being dismissive of the bravery of those fighting alongside the British as our allies but I have re read my post and I never said that nor implied it.

POGS Thanks for your interest in who I am. Emily Harburn is not my name just invented. When I started with it 5 or more years ago there was not areference by google to a person of that name. So it seemed good. Now when I google the name I just get myself on grans net:

Self diagnosis? - Dyspraxic Adults
www.dyspraxicadults.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3123
19 Feb 2013 - Postby Emily Harburn » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:40 pm. Dear Purple Pixie

didn't find anything else.

Not sure where you have found a blogg by Emily Harburn. I am a retired social worker, a member of 38 degrees and deeply concerned for the welfare of others in our society and what happens when we get older and what the future will be for our grand children.

I am not a professional spokes person for Gransnet.

I enjoy getting free books so when sent one, I do write reviews, as that is a condition of getting them.

Hope this helps.

Brilliant post, Joelsnan. It reminds me of a scene towards the end of Laurance of Arabia where the tribes are arguing. Nothing has changed.
You ask "will we remain united and democratic" (with all the changes coming) I don't think so.

Good post Joelsnan I understood the UK has been doing quite a lot to support Lebanon, Jordan and the other countries sheltering refugees.

POGS
When discussing the Syrian situation and understanding the stance Assad took, it should be understood that just like most of the 'Arab Spring' countries, there is a very tribal mentality of those who reside within Syria and the greater Arab region, and this goes deeper than purely religious differences. A family name defines you, your religion, social status and tribe. There has always been inter-tribal tension and conflict and this has frequently been contained by a strong dictator. Remove this control and we have the consequences througout the Middle East. The Arab Spring will never succeed until tribalism is overcome and this may never happen in this region and strong dictatorships may be the only path to relative peace. This may seem abhorrent to those who who manage to co-habit in a relatively democratic state, but our mindset is less tribalistic.
Assad cannot be compared with Hitler as he attempted to maintain the status quo within a very diverse country with each faction trying to take the upper hand. He has not tried to create an Ayrian race.
It is interesting to consider as UK becomes substantially more diverse with each faction maintaining their individuality and asserting their needs, will we remain united and democratic?

Unfortunately the media is driving this crisis by painting Europe as the land of milk and honey and by portraying those Europeans who question the validity of this sudden mass exodus as abhorrent. Horrific images will prompt a knee jerk reaction and celebrity "I'll take one", is it the right way?
I wonder if supporting Syrian refugees in countries which more culturally meet their needs isn't a more reasonable solution, I know that Lebanon has been very generous but is now Almost at financial breaking point. This country provides education and healthcare the same as the Syrians would receive at home maintaining a sense of continuity. Wouldn't it be better to support Lebanon than to place children in alien environments?

Of course we should help, the majority Syrian populous are gentle, kind, and loving, this situation highlights that other Arab Nations and tribes are reluctant to help, but we need to rationally evaluate the situation and don't wheel the Trojan horse into our mists in our panic to be seen to be benevolent for the media's sake.

Soooo, Austria and Germany have changed their minds!

Germany occupied the Channel Islands for five years , british soil

POGS The reason the Uk has not been invaded is because it is an island. Not because of the bravery of its people. Continental people were exceedingly brave.

I live near the flat German/French border and a tank or an army could go straight over into France or in the reverse direction and there is nothing much anybody can do against a surprise attack.
That's why we have an alliance called the EU!

I feel that comparing this crisis with WW2 or 1956, is not helpful, the times are now completely different. Refugees have GPS navigation systems on their phones, they themselves can get thousands organised.

Having made life in a foreign country myself under far better conditions I fear for the refugees, that they will loose heart with the inactivity and boredom which lies before them. It takes so long till they have learned the language and got jobs and the children settled in school etc.
The next generation will be happy here, and one hopes they will be allowed to stay if they want to.

There's a lot to be said for Ethel's attitude towards the news.
I'm a news addict. I HAVE to know all that's going on. Then I get angry/upset/frustrated. I pour all this angst out to my OH and D. They say: well don't read it then. They do have a point.

Emily Harburn

I have to openly say that whilst you have every right to post I am surprised at seeing Gransnet being used as a background to your blog history .

Are you a professional spokeswoman for Gransnet?

I don't ask that sarcastically I am genuinely wondering having googled you and your status as a writer.

I can't help but note there have anologies given between WW2 and the refugee crisis.

Yes we did as a nation take the step of taking refugees from towns deemed as being too dangerous and remove them to the country. We did accept those suffering at the hands of Nazi Germany and the nations who chose to be an ally of Germany. We were all sharing in the same war and were fighting alongside each other to get rid of Hitler.

It has been mentioned we in the UK have not been invaded since 1066. That's because we have had to sacrifice our young men and women to fight against our enemies. We knew we had to stand and fight .

When a lot of the young men and women arrived in the UK as refugees they joined our armed forces and secret service to carry out the fight. It was a common cause we shared and the be all end all was to protect our countries from the power of evil that was Nazi Germany and it's allies.

When Assad was presented with the choice of Syria becoming what we deem to be a more democratic country at the time of the so-called Arab Spring he chose to protect his status and turn on his own people. Syria became a nation of civil war and that opened up to IS being given a free hand to bring it's barbaric ideology to Syria too.

So there is also the anology to be had that as with WW2 . When it was a given that Hitler/Nazi Germany had to be destroyed countries made their own allies to fight him/them. That is how the salvation of our countries came about. It could have gone either way.

When Assad became the latest version of Hitler the world was impotent because of Libya and Iraq. The UK government were unable to help the Syrian people , the UN abandoned the Syrian people because China and Russia repeatedly vetoed action being taken in Syria because they backed Assad. The outcome was civil war prevailed and IS gained traction , because the world gave it a free hand to do so, all because the world of politics has been ham strung with political correctness.

The UN Refugee Agency Site This is a very useful site for looking at history as well as what is available now.

This site also has information about the current refugee problems
www.unhcr.org/pages/503352e46.html

As well as looking at historical responses.

www.unhcr.org/453c7adb2.html

Fiftieth Anniversary of the Hungarian uprising and refugee crisis
GENEVA, October 23 (UNHCR) –Fifty years ago today, on October 23, 1956, a student demonstration in the Hungarian capital Budapest triggered one of the tensest periods of the Cold War, as well as a remarkable response to the ensuing refugee crisis which brought substantial benefits to future generations of refugees all across the world.
As October 23 progressed, tens of thousands of people poured on to the streets – and the initial demonstration in support of the restive population of Poland quickly turned into a full-scale revolt against the regime and its Soviet masters, which for a few heady days seemed to have succeeded.
However, the Soviet tanks rolled back into Budapest on November 4, and the revolution was soon crushed. The city endured days of heavy shelling and street battles, and people started to flee to neighbouring Austria.
During the weekend of November 4-6, some 10,000 Hungarians entered Austria. Entire classes – even entire schools – began crossing the loosely guarded border. Students, teachers, doctors, famous athletes and footballers, farmers, architects and labourers all started streaming in to Austria.
It was the first major crisis to appear on television, as well as in newspapers and on cinema newsreels, and people across the world were shocked to see the scenes from Budapest and the snow-covered border.
By November 16, the number of refugees had risen to 36,000 and as of the end of November, it stood at 113,000. By the time the borders were sealed, a total of 200,000 had fled (180,000 to Austria and 20,000 to Yugoslavia).
Within days of the exodus starting, an extraordinary operation sprang up in Austria, not only to care for the refugees, but to move them out of the country almost as fast as they arrived. In the end, 180,000 were resettled from Austria and Yugoslavia to 37 countries. The performance of the Austrians, the aid agencies and the resettlement countries has rarely, if ever, been matched since.
"Both governments and people were tremendously committed to help the people fleeing from Hungary at that time," UN High Commissioner António Guterres said on the eve of the 50th anniversary of the uprising. "It was the first movement in which refugees were recognised en masse. We had 100,000 people resettled in the first 10 weeks – which I think is inconceivable today."
In Vienna, a committee was immediately set up comprising the Austrian Interior Minister Oskar Helmer and his staff, UNHCR, the Intergovernmental Committee for European Migration (ICEM), and the League of Red Cross Societies (LRCS), as well as a number of local and international NGOs.
It was decided that the LRCS would be the prime mover on the assistance front, and would also help ICEM, whose prime task would be to assist the registration, documentation and transport of refugees out of Austria. UNHCR would deal with the over-arching legal and protection issues, as well as the integration of those who remained in Austria. Helmer also wanted UNHCR to be the overall coordinator– or "lead agency" – a role that was subsequently confirmed by the General Assembly.
On the face of it, UNHCR was not in the best position to handle such a task. For one thing, it was only a temporary organisation with a mandate that was due to expire in 1958. Secondly, it was without a High Commissioner – in July, Gerrit van Heuven Goedhart had died of a heart attack and his replacement, Auguste Lindt, was not elected until December. But the agency's other senior staff proved more than capable of handling the challenge.
After a chaotic start, the relief and resettlement operations proceeded remarkably smoothly. The three coordinating agencies and many of the NGOs that worked with them put up an exceptional performance.
Within a few days of the first refugees arriving, a massive effort was launched to resettle the Hungarians. Over the following months, they were transferred by bus, train, boat and plane to 37 different nations on five continents. The United States and Canada each took in around 40,000, while the United Kingdom accepted 20,000 and Germany and Australia some 15,000 each. Two African and 12 Latin American countries also took in Hungarians.
Looking back, perhaps the most striking aspect was the sheer pragmatism and flexibility of the principal actors – especially the states. It was the first major refugee relief operation of its kind and the rule book was only partly written. For one thing, there was uncertainty as to whether the Hungarians were technically refugees under the 1951 UN Refugee Convention, and whether UNHCR had a mandate to deal with them.
UNHCR, supported by Austria, decided it had, and the states agreed. Article 6B of UNHCR's Statute seemed clearly to cover the situation. But, according to the definition in the 1951 Convention, weren't refugees only the product of events that took place prior to 1951? And didn't refugees have to be assessed individually?
UNHCR's chief legal adviser, Paul Weis drew up an argument that satisfied the legal criteria relating to the cut-off date in the Convention definition. In addition, UNHCR's Statute was used as the basis for deciding that a group arriving en masse, such as the Hungarians, could be recognised 'prima facie' – an extremely important development in international refugee law and practice. And one which has benefited tens of millions of refugees.
The 1956 uprising and its aftermath helped shape the way humanitarian organisations – not least UNHCR – were to deal with refugee crises. The episode also left an indelible mark on international refugee law and policy.
"I remember – I was a young boy at the time – and it was so impressive, so strong. The reaction of the international community was tremendous," Guterres said. "After the Second World War, many thought that this was the end of refugee crises." However, he continued, the Hungarian uprising "showed that problems like that will continue happening time and time again, and that the international community must be prepared in a generous, open way to deal with refugee problems."
Many of the Hungarians crossed the borders with the help of smugglers, and many arrived without ID papers – but it did not tarnish their image or impede their acceptance as refugees. In some ways little has changed in the world of refugees, except perhaps that 50 years later the world seems much less inclined to respond with such spontaneous hospitality.
"The international community got used to so many international crises," said Guterres. "And unfortunately today we are witnessing situations in which the amount of suffering is much greater than what we saw in Budapest – and the indifference is also much greater."