Mrs, Miss or Ms

Vq You need not worry about positive discrimination in medicine, since the numbers of women accepted to study medicine has outnumbered men for many years.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10722435/Women-GPs-outnumber-men-for-first-time.html
However, it may be the reason that some people struggle to get an appointment with the GP of their choice, and why there are so many vacancies in general practice, since many of them exercise their choice to work part time. (As do some men GPs, who increasingly realise that work-life balance is important for everyone concerned).

So most feminists dont think there should be an actual bias towards women [not just talking about jobs]? I am pretty sure that that is what the ones who talk most on the Mumsnet feminist boards think and say on occasions.

exactly absent - well explained- it is NOT about giving a woman who is less able or suitable the job- but about giving it to a woman if there are 2 or more candidates who are EQUALLY able, qualified, experienced, etc! to redress the balance, especially in management.

vq, I agree- but it should be about choice. Very few feminists I know would belittle the rôle of mother- as long as it is a true choice, and women who choose to go back to work at some point, are not themselves derided and judged for doing so. I had the best of both worlds, really, stayed at home until our children were both at school, and then went back to Uni and qualified, and quickly rose t hrough the ranks. Our girls always say that my going back to uni and to work was so inspirational and such a good example- they were so proud when on my Degree day- and even prouder now that they realise how hard it is to combine work and raising children and keeping home.

However- your view that women who work both do work + home and children, etc etc, etc (I had to because DH worked such long hours- but we got help to make up for this- a series of Au Pairs and then a friend who helped with cleaning and ironing) - is really quite old-fashioned. Many young men have totally taken this on board and share child care and house/garden duties fairly. Key is to choose the right man! I would never have put up with having to do both- in our case it was due to OH's job- but we discussed it and agreed that getting help would free us for doing things we enjoyed more.

" Rose tinted glasses " comes to mind.
If a person is given a position solely because that person is female,is that right,for any reason?How can it be.Like most of you, I want the best candidate,whatever their gender.The people who berate a person for staying at home to raise his or her children,has probably been conditioned to do so.
Equalforall,means just that.No preferential treatment for anyone.
Personally, I can't think for the life of me why a woman wants to be a front line soldier,but,if she's capable,AND I mean capable,in as much as her training is the same as the men's.good luck to her.Personally I've never done mud, and I'm a devout coward,and I love pink.

vamipirequeen The criterion for positive discrimination is, I think, that if there are two (or more) candidates who are equally suitable/good/qualified, you choose the woman, not that you choose the woman willy nilly, however unsuitable. It is quite a complex process. The other form of positive discrimination is to provide the means for those who have suffered from inequality to achieve their potential, through, for, example, higher eduction that may have been denied them.

I am not at all sure that positive discrimination is the right way forward, but it is a legitimate and reasonable idea.

It is interesting that we never question some body of authority that is entirely staffed by men and has been for decades, but start getting twitchy when we talk about female quotas – or even just one woman at the table.

I don't like positive discrimination. For example, if I need to see a doctor then I want the best doctor not the person who was given the job to fit in with positive discrimination targets.

Your [sic] either feminist or you believe in equality.
NO,you can't be both.Feminist want special treatment.

I am a feminist and believe in equality. So do many other feminists I know or whose books I have read. I have never encountered personally or in feminist literature any suggestion that women should have preferential treatment. There are those who advocate positive discrimination – a legitimate suggestion given that such action has had relative success in some other areas of social and economic inequality – but this is by no means a mainstream feminist proposal.

I know what you mean vq. True equality should be about having choices - whether to work or whether to stay at home and raise your children yourself. If a woman chooses to be a full-time homemaker and mother she shouldn't have to feel that she is somehow inferior, or not making a worthwhile contribution to society. I can't think of an occupation that is more worthwhile than raising the next generation.

It seems that women who are stay at home mums are not really valued though. They seem to be looked down on by many women who go out to work and the gov seems to be pushing them to work too.

Men go to work. Women go to work then take care of the children, do the housework, shopping, washing, iron and a host of other tasks. What's wrong with simply being a mother? Why does a woman have to do so much more? I know in some cases it's the need for money....my mum had to work because my dad was blacklisted and could never get overtime.

There is a joke in Addams Family Values when Gomez talks to Fester about the 'joy of having children, and of paying someone else to raise them.' That seems to be what mothers are being encouraged/forced to do.

I believe they think they are.

Do you believe they actually are 'got at'?

I do think it's backfired somewhat, though. OK so the official line is that women must be valued as women whatever they choose to do, but behind the scenes some men are even more anti-women than they ever were because they feel 'got at'.

Feminism wants women to be valued, whether they choose to be engineers or stay-at-home mums or anything else.
It's not an either/or.

That is where I think the definition has shifted. Now feminism is seen as women against men. It used to be that women are as good as men.

I am a Equalforall person.and I too have never met a staunch feminist .(my that would be fun)
Some of you people seem to have had a turn around in your opinions.
Your either feminist or you believe in equality.
NO,you can't be both.Feminist want special treatment.Your right Vampire queen.Anything belittling women,the feminist would be right on their soapbox.but are quite happy to do it to men.
No like you, I believe we are the same,but different .We each have something to contribute to a better world.
In fact if you think of all women or all men,they will each be different to each other.

With Ms vs Mrs or Miss, the inequality is that s formal address a man is a Mr whether he is a callow youth of 18 with no history behind him or a sage old grandfather. A women is instantly labelled - she is either a Miss - a young girl or an embittered spinster schoolteacher - or a Mrs - a matron with a committed male partner who will see off a seducer.

I am happy to be Mrs (though my other half is no more) but that is my choice. There is no need for anyone else to assume that I am a doormat because I don't insist on being a Muzz.

I think the definition of feminism has changed with time. To be a feminist used to be to want women to catch up with men in so many fields where they were disadvantaged, and it was a proud name. It led to women getting control of their own money, access to their children if a marriage broke down, the vote, improvements in how women were educated and their subsequent careers.

In the UK and part of the world we have all these, so there is a degree of complacency and the belief that there is no longer any need for women to fight for them, so they should shut up about another inequalities they can still see.

It is not helped by some people now who call themselves feminists but are really misanthropists - "Feminism" is now another word in some ears for "strident ball-breaker"

And of course there are still some misogynists who to this day would rather women stayed in the kitchen murmuring, "Yes, dear"

I fear it will always be that way no matter what VQ. Although we have moved on considerably since I first began working in engineering. In those earlier days various reps brought in topless calendars that the "lads" put up in various places around the factory. It was a case of put up and shut up. Thankfully the calendars these days tend to be a lot more tasteful.

Pretty girls will always parade at the Grand Prix/BTCC etc.

Pretty girls will always sell clothes, aftershave, cars to airheaded men.

I was pretty excited when I got my first Kenwood mixer a few months back, after wanting one for about 20 years but not being able to afford the real thing. DH was very excited when he got the motor mover fitted to our caravan, so I guess it's horses for courses.

I prefer Ms and feel strongly Miss is for under 18s, to me it sounds silly. It's a bit like addressing an eighteen year old man as Master.

Many married women use Ms, it's not just for divorced or single women. If married or single women prefer Mrs I don't see that as a problem either.

I can't help thinking feminism has gone too far. At the beginning it had a cause. Wrongs needed to be righted but now if we're not careful it will be used to emasculate men. Just as it was wrong to show women as little housewives who virtually orgasmed as the prospect of owning a Kenwood Chef or not too bright secretaries simply waiting for Mr Right to come along it's also wrong to portray men as fools who need a woman to help them switch on the washing machine or sex objects (the diet coke advert). In fact if the diet coke advert was the other way round with men leering at a fit young girl all hell would break loose.

I'm with you VQ we each have our perfect place in the world.

Depends what you call a feminist. I support women's rights and equality. However, I don't hate or even dislike men - I have two great sons and three grandsons, all brought up to respect women as equal partners. My ex called himself a feminist but if I brought feminism into the home, he went off in a hissy fit!

I don't think I'm a feminist...well part of me isn't. I believe in equal pay and opportunities in education and work but....

....women tend to be nurturers and men protectors/providers. I think we're two halves of a whole.

Where Leticia - on forums for militant feminists

I haven't met them in RL but I find them online.