A very difficult situation-what to do?

I missed that in an earlier post Ana. I have been flitting in and out.

There's no reason to suspect that they were unaware. As KateK says, the SW she spoke to said the family was probably in their system already, and later it was confirmed that they had the matter in hand.

Better safe than sorry.

In spite of the headlines, it is not true that SWs whip children away from their families at the drop of a hat - in fact, many think that they often err too far the other way.

I am surprised that the whole gamut of services for children were unaware of a young mother on methadone.

You did the right thing. We hear of children having the most terrible deaths and if people had behaved like you they may have been saved.
I think people on methodone pick up their medication daily at a set time when the next dose is due.

I think you did the right thing. You might have spent a lot of time afterwards feeling that you had let these children down if you hadn't. Unfortunately, sometimes we collude in people's downfall by taking the attitude that we shouldn't interfere. I do think that we are also guilty of lowering the morality of society by letting some things go. Sometimes it was good that people cared what others thought. However, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Makes one wonder what one is paying taxes for sometimes?!

If the mum has to go to the shops, visit friends or family, take the children to the park and other normal activities, she could fit in calling at the pharmacy to have her methadone. Family support is all about enabling her to get on with life, not taking responsibility from her. The focus of supporting her would be in helping her to identify how she can do all these things without putting any of her children at risk. Sometimes family support workers are available to accompany people in such circumstances to enable them to work out the best way to cope eg two little ones in the stroller and the other walking on reins, or enlisting the help of a friend or relative. Social workers creating dependency on their intervention aren't really helping people who bave the capacity to take responsibility for themselves.

I would hope the social workers would devise a plan whereby the mum doesn't have to drag her three young children along to collect her methadone. But I doubt if anything that practical will be forthcoming.

The incident of the two year old drowning in the bath is horrifying. Not exactly a success story for the social workers.

Don't know why you think you need a hard hat iam64. To have been in the profession you worked in you must have developed a very hard shell by now.

Yes, indeed Stansgran.

Well done KateK. Passers by seeing this behaviour should report such concerns to the police giving as much identifying information as possible.

It may or may not lead to the child being identified but at least someone has tried.

In this situation, as others have said, the methadone clinic would almost certainly know exactly who it was.

Doesn't it take a village to bring up a child?

jings The social workers will say whatever needs to be said to find out the truth, ascertain the position and get her back to considering her three - three - underschool children. If she is getting "medication" and is known to them, they are the ones whose jobs will be on the line if/when those children come to harm.

Yes, she is a mum in difficulties, but social workers are supposed to help her out of them, not ignore her.

You ask why katek posted this? To see how other GNers would have reacted, perhaps? Most would have done the same thing. Only a few would have passed by on the other side while children were at risk.

Katek, what a heartfelt post summarising years of personal and professional knowledge of addiction and its impact on children. It's a relief to seethe vast majority of posters here empathise with you in relation to this incident.

I'll answer jingle's question as best I can and put my tin hat on. This referral should result in an assessment of the children's needs. That will start with a discussion with their mum and should include initial enquiries with school, family centre, health visitor, community drug team. The mum should be seen with the children. The aim will be to support mum in her care of the children.

I still wonder what the social workers will do. What will they say to the mother?

One can still doubt oneself Jingl. Even if it were reds under beds I'd also rather err on the side of caution

I think that it was a difficult call to make. And one that was better made than unmade.

Those cases that you came across in your work, do seem a lot more extreme than this mother with her three fairly well looked after children. Perhaps it's a bit like seeing "reds under the beds".

With all that experience why did you need to ask Gransnetters what you should do?

Thank you other ladies for your support. Much appreciated. x

Ladies, thank you so much for your concern about my perceived lack of understanding and inability to see the real world through the rose coloured lenses of my spectacles. I can assure you I am only too well aware of the difficulties faced on a daily basis by children and vulnerable adults throughout this country.

I do object to being patronised by those who do not know me and have absolutely no idea of my background, training or career.

FYI ex dh was (probably still is) an alcoholic, ex sister in law was a drug addict and died from an overdose aged 27 ( oh by the way, her daughter, now in her 40's, is in secure psychiatric accommodation and is likely to remain there. Her mother and friends thought it fun to get her stoned when she was a toddler, she had a real Topsy and Tim upbringing didn't she?) Then there was my neighbour Jean who spent half the 70's lying on the sofa off her face on Largactil. Her daughters were eventually taken into care and adopted. Another Topsy and Tim story don't you think?

I've visited dealers' houses (in a professional capacity) where the door had 6" steel plate fixed to the back to keep both junkies and police out and they kept a machete by the door just in case. Then there was the guy with a 4ft mound of J Collis Browne empty bottles and packaging behind the sofa, or Gavin, who carried a sword stick for protection. Saddest of all was the little girl who drowned in 2" of bath water upstairs while her parents got wrecked downstairs. There were children in all these houses.

I've worked in addiction services for many years and served on the Children's Panel here in Scotland seeing the fairytale side of life. Emergency hearing to execute a place of safety order for a 10 month baby left in her cot all weekend with a bottle of milk and nobody at home, children offending in the hope that we would send them somewhere that wasn't home, the near impossibility of getting children out of dangerous homes......all part of what made me take the decision I did.

This mother was not fit at that moment in time to have charge of a child. Not in any way. That was, and still is, my personal and professional opinion based on 40 years of experience. (And no, I wasn't a social worker before anyone rushes to condemn that overworked profession)

Let's try a bit of visualisation.... why don't we imagine taking our dgc's, when aged 4 or 5 , down to the busiest street in our towns, letting go their hands and disappearing round the corner leaving them to their own devices. Hold that thought. Comfortable with it? That child I saw yesterday deserves the same safety and security we afford our dgc's and I really hope that can be achieved even in some small way. At least I can put my hand up and say I tried, not write it off as how the other half live.

Oh and SW called back to say thank you for phoning in the incident. They have the situation in hand.

Katek, I like to think I would have done exactly as you did.

I think you did the right thing, too many people dont want to be seen as interfering or as busybodies and so ignore things. That is how Jamie Bulger got abducted. It sounds, from your description as if the children were not being ill treated or neglected though, but as you said, had one of them dashed off there would could have been a far worse situation.

Community midwives should already know who is on methadone as the agencies concerned share information. Methadone passes into breast milk, so this will be addressed in hospital before discharge and included in the notes. Even though there may be many people taking methadone it's still a Class A drug and has to be monitored - it isn't done publicly, so there's no reason why local people would know what is happening privately for any individual. Most people on a reducing methadone pogramne get on with it and won't show any signs, but someone who may be topping up with street drugs and not in control when in charge of children on the street is likely to need more support and the children's safety is paramount. The ones we see who don't appear to be managing or known to the authorities may be taking too many risks for their children's safety, so the authorities need the public to tell them.

If we were looking at this scenario after a child had been repeatedly left at risk of coming to harm and it hit the heaflines, everyone would be complaining about no-one doing anything to help the child. It's a judgement call that responsible adults make every day.

You did what you thought was best and it was a thoughtful and concerned action, but in some ways it reveals a lack of knowledge about the world some children live in. SW were probably being pleasant but probably wouldn't do much. Years ago I worked in a school in a very poor area, we had a mother who constantly turned up inebriated even when she brought her child in to the nursery in a morning. We told the head who grudgingly agreed to report it.It was recorded but the child was fed, clothed and cared for so nothing was done. The funny thing was that as she walked (staggered) through the estate other parents would let her walk their kids to school! Years later I learned that she had died an alcoholic and the father had taken the child to live with relatives in Scotland

Katak,did you think that every child has a happy healthy mother and life's like Topsy and Tim?
When my daughter was out with a community midwife visiting a newborn she asked, "Shall I record that the Mum's on Methodone?" and was told, "Oh no, round here they very often are"