Dilemma, should Dad still be driving?

See FlicketyB's post of 12.28 today.

I wasn't aware that anyone implied that.

From all accounts Jeffrey Spector had the full support of his family during and after he'd made his decision to go to Dignitas.

Of course they're grieving now, it's only natural, but to imply that he did it all on his own without the knowledge of his family is misleading.

One of my close friends talked recently about her mother's death. The family have lived in the Netherlands for two generations but are originally Chinese. The mother was 90 and increasingly immobile and in pain because of arthritis and other health problems. She decided over the past couple of years that she'd had enough, so arranged her own death at a time of her choosing. Her loving family gathered and were all with her as she died.

I find the term 'put down' both distressing and offensive to people who make this choice. I'm sure FlicketyB is right and that the family of the man who went to Dignitas are missing him and struggling with his death. I felt the same when my mother died because her death was not what she would have chosen, whereas my friends mother did chose the manner and time of her departure from this world. I understand that isn't a path everyone would choose but I do believe it's wrong to criticise or express anger towards those who do so.

Blimey how have we moved from giving up driving to giving up life itself?!

Of course death is death. But would you say of someone who choose to die, that s/he 'has put her/himself down'?

Death is indeed death- and choosing to die with dignity at a time of once choosing due to terrible suffering has nothing to do with being 'put down'- which would mean murder by someone else.

It is a word I would use for my own actions or of anyone dear to me choosing that method of death ... or should I use a euphemism like 'passed away'. Death is death however much people try to hide behind all kinds of curtains and when it comes it is often undignified and unpleasant. I have seen enough to be quite clear that that is probably what my death will be like, so I have accepted reality and in the meanwhile I am concentrating on all I have that makes life good.

No, of course- we can't plan for everything. And whatever happens, of course our daughters and grandchildren will be distraught. But I truly feel it is our duty to try and minimise the worry for them by taking positive steps in the right direction. Including stopping driving if and when it is clear things are not right. That is only fair to them, I feel- especially as we have made the decision to live abroad.

The 'putting down comment' is truly out of order and totally insensitive- words fail me.

I am so glad I live in a country where the choice will be mine- if ever the time comes. And I certainly would not want my children to have to care for me physically if ever this is required- it would never be their job to wipe my nether regions and wash me- never. Much better left to caring professionals.

Whatever happens to us, how ever sensible and organised we are, we should all face up to the fact that are going will cause our children 'pain, angst and worry.'

It is one of the comfortable delusions of our generation of older people that we think we can, if we get the organisation right, reduce our end to a quick disappearance act that causes no-one any problems and everybody else marches on with barely a ripple on the surface of their lives. It won't be like that.

As I said my DF lived a life of complete independence until his last illness at the age of 92; one week feeling unwell at home, 3 days with me and then 2 months in my local hospital until he died. It really couldn't have been easier and less hassle, but the amount of pain angst and worry it caused me was immense and I wouldn't have given up a second of it.

Last week a man went to Dignitas under his own steam to be put down before his illness made him quadriplegic. All done under his own steam, no trouble to his family, everything neatly set up. Have his family returned home given a big sigh and got back to life as normal? Everything I have read suggest that they are distressed, grieving, in pain, and struggling to understand their father's decision and missing him, missing him so much.

The hands over ears and singing la la la attitude has much to be recommended. Better than believing that you have any control over what will happen at the end or control over how your children will react and deal with it.

Well of course- it is hard to know. Shame you've had to deal with those crises as it does take a toll. With my parents, I had to ask for time off so many times to come and deal with a crisis- and dad just refused to take any steps to ensure they could stay at home as long as poss- always saying it was fine, he could cope, and 'we will see later'. I tried again and again, gently and quielty, to explain that spening a bit of money on adapting the house and mainly the bathroom, would save 100000s in the long term, but mainly allow them to stay at home and cared for in their own home- but he wouldn't listen. And of course, what had to happen, happened- and then there was no choice. He hated being in the OAP home... and it could have so easily been avoided with a bit of advance organisation and a little money spent.

So we are certainly looking ahead all the time- to ensure we never put our daughters through all the pain and angst and worry- and to make sure we have a shower downstairs, etc. They made us promise we would go back to the UK to be near them 'if ever'- and we would to make their life easier. But I would not expect them to look after us apart from visiting.

But what is the right step at the right time? DH and I have had to step in and cope 5 times when elderly relatives hit a crisis. All were living in sensible suitable accommodation, close to amenities, in situations where they did not need a car. 2 acute terminal illnesses, 2 strokes and 1 with severe depression. None of these could be foreseen. In none could pro-active changes in living circumstances have done anything to avert the crisis or made it easier to deal with.

The one proactive action that would have helped would have been if all had given someone powers of attorney. Our greatest problems dealing with these crises arose from dealing with the affairs of the two who had not given anyone powers of attorney to deal with their affairs when they were incapacitated.

The point is Ana- is that if you take the right steps at the right time (in time) then you can avoid sheltered accommodation. My parents refused to adapt their home or to get used to public transport, etc- and when the time came, there was absolutely no choice but to go into an OAP home. We are still young and active and fit- but are sensibly planning ahead, for us- as WE DO NOT WANT TO GO INTO OAP home, and also for our children- I do not wish my daughters to be squeezed into the 'teenagers + elderly parents' connandrum, as we were.

jane10- we did the same. When we moved here 6 years ago nearly, we chose a location in the countryside but with excellent public transport- for that very reason. My dad continued to drive into his mid 90s, and although very fit and of sound mind- had become a menace on the roads. He did have the sense to limit his driving to local routes and never drove at night- but even so. It worried us (and the local population) to bits, and it took quite a serious accident (no-one injured thank goodness) for him to accept it was time to give up driving. We have sworn to our children that we would use public transport as soon as we realise, or are made to realise- that the time has come. My mum had a minor stroke when driving in her mid 80s and ended up in a ditch, and gave up her licence the next day- despite being a brilliant driver in the past.

We have a good bus service to the next large village in Switzerland and the next large town in France- where we can hop on the train to the whole of Europe.

But not everyone's in a position to be able to up-sticks and move to a more convenient location, for various reasons.

At what age should we start thinking 'hmm, I may not be able to drive when I'm in my 80s so better check out the sheltered accommodation now...' 40s, 50s?

No that's not it ana. Of course people can express worries. Why not offer suggestions for overcoming them? These are problems that can be seen coming!

Oh I see! You did it so you are irritated when others who haven't done it express their worries on here...

We moved to a flat fairly centrally located but quietly situated with good local transport, shops that deliver and near to family members. We're not that old. We did this quite deliberately having seen elderly people who left it just too late to make a move. Its not a retirement home just a planned move for our own and other's convenience. I would hate to put family to any bother in the event of accident or illness and its better than whistling in the dark like some.

What happened to your mum is not that usual I dont think.
Plus I also think that what elderly drivers did in your area, is not that usual either.

I get your point of being prepared. And bearing it in mind. But.. [I am losing the point here, I will come back later].

Plus sometimes the solution for a never may be needed plan, can be worse than if you didnt do anything and didnt even end up needing it.

What are your plans Jane10?
[no point asking me by the way, I am still very young!]

It is not fingers crossed, fingers in ears etc, it is having plans A - Z thought through and discussed but not implementing them until needed. It certainly worked for the Duke of Wellington! Most of the things that went wrong he had anticipated might do and he immediately put in place his contingency plans.

On your basis, Jane10, the sensible thing to do on retirement would be to sell up and move into a care home just in case you needed one some time in the future.

So far so good then for some (but not others). Hope the fingers crossed attitude works for you but you can't count on it. Alternatively try fingers in ears and saying la la la it'll all be fine (somehow)!

The number of taxis calculation is very variable. Tax + insurance + MOT plus service is a start. And then there are repairs that usually come in at a few hundred a year if you are very lucky. If you happen to have a rather new car there would be fewer repairs but depreciation is significant. We just sold a 13 year old car and it has depreciated a couple of thousand every year on average. Newer the car, faster it depreciates. Then there is the location - living in a rural area will obviously incur much greater taxi costs. Getting groceries delivered might help to offset.
My sister lives in a rural location and has had no car for a few years. She seems to cope pretty well - she's got good at scrounging lifts and has a local taxi company that give her a discount as a regular customer.

Jane10, but surely one does that anyway. At any age any disaster can hit from sudden death to a disabling illness. In the words of the (first) Duke of Welllington, 'If anything went wrong, I tied a knot and went on ' that has certainly been one of my guiding principles.

When we moved to our current home we made sure we bought in a village with facilities, not with old age in mind, but with general convenience at any age. We did the village with a two mile drive to buy a paper and 8 miles to the station when the children were young. It wasn't convenient then, it isn't convenient at any age. On the other hand I do not intend to sell up and move to the centre of a town with everything within mobility scooter reach just in case I might need to live like that in 1, 5, or 10 years time.

The chance of me being hit by another elderly driver or a woman is quite high. Most of my driving is around our village and into Tesco's car park. During the times I drive most, I would guess that 90% of the drivers are either retired or mums, so if I am involved in an accident it will most likely be one or the other.

As I said this is not an unforeseeable problem. None of us knows what could happen to us in the way of degeneration. Short illness then death or long slow loss of faculties. Either way we can't simply count on definitely just continuing to drive. We may be able to but we may not. This is an unwelcome truth but truth nevertheless. Make plans. Do it before it becomes an issue rather than complain when it does.