Is wolf-whistling a sex crime?

She got her 15 minutes of fame.

We want equality. In that case we can't ask for any special treatment. No more doors held open so we can walk through first, no seats being given up for us, no more minding their language, no having heavy things carried for us or do we want it all ways.

I thought equality was about opportunity and life chances not about whether we should get upset about a wolf whistle.

vampirequeen I don't feel it is "harmless fun" to deliberately set out to embarrass someone in the workplace so that they "squirm and go red" - whether the butt of the "joke" is a man or a woman. However, I think it is mainly women who are routinely treated to sexist or insulting remarks, who are touched inappropriately or who their personal space invaded - and women are potentially at more physical risk from men than the other way round.

katek We were talking about a particular case where a young woman complained about what she considered to be a pattern of continual sexual harassment. Who is saying 'men are always in the wrong'? Would you refer to a person who has made an official complaint about racist or homophobic behaviour and those who support their complaint as taking the "moral high ground"?

And women may well want equality but it isn't, as you imply, a "done deal" - as many of the comments reported on everyday sexism demonstrates. You say women should take the responsibility of standing up for ourselves - well, in the end, that is just what this young woman did. You say she wasn't in any danger - that nobody would attack her in broad daylight in full view of others. It is, I agree, unlikely - but I personally know of one case where a woman was seriously sexually assaulted in broad daylight and I'm sure there must be many more.

You may disagree with this person's actions but to suggest that this young woman's actions make women look "feeble" and turn them into a "bit of a laughing stock" is, I think, illogical.

Just to clarify... I think it is natural to want not to be offended ever, but I think it's unreasonable to really expect that state to be achieved. I am "offended" by all sorts of cruel practices and customs human beings still engage in. I find some political views offensive. And so on. I am not arguing that everyday sexism and sexist behaviour should not be tackled.

It was the norm back in the 60's, never bothered me much. Even later in life, I also worked with a mainly female workforce, although by that time I was a production engineer and not working on the shop floor, but Christmas was only for the brave. I did once split the whole back seam of my trouser in the middle of the production line

I think that what happened in your case pompa was going too far. Way too far.

I've been on the site and apart from the obviously horrible ones like the boys on the bus calling the girls whores or the strange man asking the woman if she was wet I couldn't see the problem.

The taxi driver asked the girl if she had a boyfriend and ignored what she was studying. Big deal. He said the place she was going was for clever people so perhaps he didn't feel intelligent enough to comment on her educational achievements.

As for the plaques. Welcome to my garden for women and genius at work for men....oh come on. What about the plaques that insult men? Yesterday I saw some that talked about grumpy old men and boring old farts. I'd much rather have it suggested that I was friendly with a nice garden than grumpy with a wind problem.

I was the recipient of some mild sexism from a woman the other day. She assumed the man who came into the shop just behind me was with me, saw me, looked past me and spoke to him. Fortunately he was polite and said I was before him. I went back to the same shop a little later that day and spoke to the manager. I asked him to speak to the staff about that kind of everyday sexism. I expect it is often uncosciously done, and probably was in that instance. All the more reason to raise awareness by speaking about it.

Digression from the main theme: I think many people "never want to feel offended again" but if you think about it, that's not really a realistic want, nor even reasonable. If one wants democracy one must also accept differences – a lot of them – and some of those differences one will not like. Some of them may well even "offend" you. You have to just put up with a certain amount of offended feelings if you really want a free and democratic society. I realise a lot of people don't agree with that but it is what I think.

If you go on this site you will see the way people are affected:
www.everydaysexism.com

Of course two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm hacked off with the automatic 'men are always in the wrong' thinking. I don't think that I can take the moral high ground simply by virtue of my sex. We wanted equality in a shed load of areas-well, along with that comes the responsibility to stand up for ourselves and learn to handle ourselves in situations we find uncomfortable. This girl wasn't in any physical danger...nobody was going to physically attack her in broad daylight in full view of others. Intimidated? Yes. Unwarranted? Yes. Coarse? Yes. So just sidestep and carry on your way. I don't think that this case had been at all helpful towards the real issues we still need to fight but has made us (women) out to be a bit of a feeble bunch, bit of a laughing stock really.

And please don't jump on the ' she shouidn't have to do that' bandwagon. She probably shouidn't, but this is real life and it isn't always the way we want it to be.

I worked in a very male orientated environment when I was 17. There were six of us under the age of 25. Most of the men were middle aged and flirted with us constantly but one was only a few years old than us. We saw him as fair game and, in modern parlance, harassed him. We loved the fact that we could make him go red and squirm. It was all harmless fun.

There is a difference between harmless fun and rape. Unfortunately we've got so far into being correct now that everything is seen as harassment or incorrect.

It is traditional in this area to call anyone 'love'. This is no longer allowed on pain of dismissal in a lot of companies because of the potential for harassment allegations. When I was a teacher I was told off for calling children 'pet' or 'kiddies'. Apparently that was being disrespectful to the children. No child or parent complained but the SMT were afraid that someone would in the future.

Soontobe "And can still affect a man's mental wellbeing." Perhaps that's why I have ended up with a warped sense of humour.
What did we learn (we were 15), to give as good as you got !
Our "hell" was good humoured, but a bit of groping etc did occur, especially at Christmas when a few drinks had been smuggled in.
I would never have considered reporting anything, I suspect it would have no longer been good humoured if we had, not that I felt bullied in any way.

Is anyone saying two wrongs make a right? - I was questioning why this overt lewd behaviour from both sexes in public is on the increase.

Some wolf whistles are compliments.
And women like to recieve wolf whistles as compliments.
Nothing to do with validation for lots of us.

Abuse is something quite different.

Newspapers seem to be incapable of getting and reporting full facts right at the beginning.

(Quote) "I want to live in a democratic society but I don't ever want to be offended again,"

May I just ask where that quote came from Katek; you didn't attribute it.

There is a lot in the last few posts about this happening to men as well as women. If it does surely that is wrong too. When did we decide two wrongs make a right?

And well said Jess

Because it's hard to stop this behaviour completely; because some women behave badly to some men in this way -bith points are completely irrelevant in discussing why this Young women should or should not put up with this behaviour. We live in the 21st century - well some of us do- and I cannot think of one reason why sexist behaviour like this ( or reverse examples) should be tolerated. And those of you going on about it being a compliment? The idea that a wolf whistle ( if indeed that were all it were) is a compliment? That you welcome that sort of validation? And finally, if you accept shouting out compliments, whistling etc as acceptable, have you never heard of the heart breaking abuse shouted out to disabled/ obese people? Just don't shout out - grow up

Katek I only once went to a hen party , a very middle aged affair in a posh hotel. Nevertheless it involved a certain amount of ritualised sexual humiliation of young waiters. It made me feel terribly uncomfortable.
Lewd public behaviour is not a given - it occurs within the framework of what is deemed acceptable within a social group (and the wider public arena).
I have no doubt that if you went to a brothel in Victorian London you could see vulgar behaviour - but this did not occur in the drawing rooms of the middle classes and wealthy - at least when "ladies" were present.
So saying "it was ever thus and ever will be" is not valid. Social norms change and it is up to the members of the social group to determine when they think change is needed and to do something about it. So if everyone shrugs and says "boys will be boys" then this kind of behaviour will continue and increase.

Women doing it to men is still not nice though.
And can still affect a man's mental wellbeing.

What I cant understand is why she didnt change her route?
I know that she shouldnt have to, but as Katek says, you have to deal with the reality.
She did report it though to the company which was very good.

That's right, it's not just confined to the male of the species. Females can be just as bad (I thought we were talking about harrassment here, not rape) and intimidating to a man or boy, as described in my earlier link.

Some behaviour in public seems to be coarser in general although I wonder if actual 'groping' in the workplace (for want of a better word), is on the decrease because that is more likely to be reported than brushed under the carpet and not dealt with.

*have

Petallus... it wasn't teasing. Prob still isn't in some environments. These young lads have their backsides squeezed, their anatomy groped and fondled, and my DH says that some of the behaviour when trousers were taken down and genitals exposed was quite definitely an attack. Women in a pack can be very intimidating-gave you seen a hen party recently?

I've heard about young men being teased when they go into a female work environment.

I can see they would be uncomfortable but, sorry pompa, it's not the same thing.

This is because of the 'double standard' when it comes to sexual behaviour and the fact that women do not very often sexually assault/rape men (I'm sure a few do).

By the way what did you learn very quickly?

That's what I've been saying Pompa...sexist behaviour isn't confined to the male of the species.

I don't propose to comment on the "wolf whistle" debate as I have never been whistled at. However my very first job was working as a stand in on a production line. I and another lad were the only males in a dept of 50 or so women -- we went through hell, and learn't a lot very quickly.