How much are you worth ?

Yes, what trisher said about money.

I am a bit surprised, and perturbed, that christians now, are judged on things that so called christians may or may not have done throughout the ages.
Personally, I refuse to take that on board.
By that reckoning, nobody escapes anything, ever.

Elegran. Yes, helping the disadvantaged is part of looking inside ourselves. I could give you a list of a lot of other things too, but I fear that I would bore you!

I don't think everything bad done by members of the Christian churches is because of religion Lilygran, they like everyone else have free choice over their actions. I do think philanthropy, particularly in Victorian times had a strong link to a fear of not getting into heaven because you were too rich. But of course there were and are lots of other reasons why people do good things, Christian any other faith, or even none.

Quoting GT. "It doesn't matter that it's not sung now - we are discussing what it meant when it was and how wrong that was.

Of course it matters. It's progress.

I like money. I think it's great. It's definitely one of my favourite things.

It astonishes me when people (on and off GN) believe that everything bad done by members of Christian churches is because of the religion, and anything good done by ditto is either just because they are good people or because they're afraid of hell!

Soontobe Perhaps changing what is inside us also includes beginning (if we have not done so before) thinking about the unfair disadvantages that others have? Improving those is often more than personal action in giving or helping, it involves trying to change the things that make them disadvantaged.

People like Josephine Butler and William Wilberforce could have been said to be acting politically when they fought for change - and they achieved it.

That sounds right. Thanks!

Wasn't it F Scott Fitzgerald?

I thought that Christ said it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it was for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven. (and I know the eye etc was a gate into the city) so isn't that supposed to be a basic belief of Christianity? That being rich isn't a good thing and to value money for itself isn't good for a person's soul? That's certainly the reason we see so much philanthropy in Victorian times- they were a bit worried about what would happen when they passed on. These days of course there isn't the pressure of religion on most rich people, and of course there is so much more to spend your money on houses, yachts, fast cars. Someone said "The rich are different to us" and received the reply "Yes they have more money." Anyone know who it was?

Lily - I wish I could stay and debate this but I have to get ready for visitors and shift a mountain of paperwork but I think you are presenting a very sanitised view of Christianity through the ages. Christianity has often been a source of corruption, greed, suppression and has shored up disadvantage and inequality - for those Christians fighting this ( usually non conformists and especially Quakers) , there have been many, especially in state/established Churches supporting regimes and issues that we now ( most of us) think of as pure evil - such as slavery and apartheid . I have views as well on the current position on abortion of the RC church and how in Ireland and some South/Central American countries women and young girls die and/ or suffer horribly because of the power of the church on the legislative. I would also argue that the Christian church has not ( and clearly does not in some of its manifestations) encourage questioning - far from it. Think of the Inquisition, Mary and Elizabeth Tudor. I could go on but must go. To sum up, some Christians at some times have fought for the poor and dispossessed and other Christians at other times have supported, shored up and even led the fight against attempts to better the lot of the poor and disadvantaged . Christianity IMO has no claim to any high moral ground in this area ( I am speaking globally and historically here so it is a bit of a broad brush)

Didn't someone once say ' I've been rich and miserable and poor and miserable- rich is better'. But seriously, whilst it's true that money can't bring love and happiness , I agree with Parcs that it can bring security and contentment which means a better quality of life. Grinding, continual poverty with fear of eviction, worry about paying for fuel and food, health care and education ( in some countries) does nothing to nourish the soul ( whatever that means) or lay the foundation for contentment. Even if you stay above the breadline , there can be that nagging worry at the back of your mind about what happens if the washing machine breaks down, the overtime at work is reduced. As I've said elsewhere I was brought up in a community with endemic poverty and deprivation and saw first hand the corrosive effects of that on prople and relationships.

Monetary wealth on it's own can of course make life easier but I don't believe it can bring contentment on it's own to most people. All the money in the world would be worth nothing to me if I didn't have love and friendship in my life.

But in case you don't know the story of Dives and Lazarus, here is a link en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus. There is a Christmas Carol as well.

'All things bright and beautiful' is very old-fashioned but the point of the whole hymn is to celebrate God's creation, including people. I've always assumed that the verse people have taken exception to was referring to the story of Dives and Lazarus and we all know how that ends, don't we? And the idea that we are all equal and valued by God underlay much of the benevolent activism of the 18th and 19th centuries and hospitals, schools, care for the poor, throughout its history. One of the reasons Christianity has been and is being suppressed over 2000 years is that it is subversive and encourages questioning and alliance with the disadvantaged.

I am out later, so please,no one, dont take it personally if I dont reply for a while.
I will probably be back on this evening.

I am surprised by how much some posters see the world in merely political terms.
As far as I know, the general population of the UK does not?

How can religion, particularly Christianity be anything other than political

Because it should be about what is inside an individual, not what is outside.
It is about self improvement. Our sin, as described by the bible.

People do not go to church to learn how to change things politically.
Perhaps we are disagreeing on what the word political means?

pompa I respectfully disagree that money brings dis content. Money gives you a feeling of security, it gives you choices, it gives you quality of life. For eg, if I had a bit more money I could buy myself a car and that would bring me much happiness, if I had more money I could go to a private dentist instead of an NHS dentist, etc etc etcg

People that say money does not bring contentment are usually people that have lots of the stuff��

Wow gillybob I agree you are priceless. You are obviously a giving person.

It doesn't matter that it's not sung now - we are discussing what it meant when it was and how wrong that was.

Good post Flick. The CofE is a much better institution now than when it was 'the Tory party at prayer' and shored up a whole range of wicked exploitations including slavery. Any society is healthier when there is a tension between church and state - look at the continuing problems in Ireland where the influence of the church over the state is anything but healthy or conducive to real democracy and freedom. I'm not being anti religion - just making the point that when the church and the state are hand in glove, the more disadvantaged and powerless will continue to remain so.

That verse is never sung in church these days.

I cannot see that being taught that everyone as equal can possibly lead to accepting the social order suggested in 'All things bright and beautiful'. The effect on me was just the opposite, it seemed to me, at a very young age, that if you accepted that you couldn't possibly accept any system, class or caste, that put people in little boxes and kept them there.

My own family circumstances proved just the opposite. My illegitimate Irish Catholic grandfather grew up in desperate poverty in Northern Ireland, enlisted in the Royal Artillery in 1901 and rose through the ranks, was commissioned as an officer and retired having reached the rank of major and was awarded an OBE.

How can religion, particularly Christianity be anything other than political? Not party political, I agree, but in recent years the CofE has, for example, spoken out against the way many families have been affected by the bedroom tax, the way many of the poorest have had their benefits cut as a sanction for not meeting inhuman and sometimes impossible job hunting and training demands from DWP officials, the behaviour of banks and many other social issues. All these issues and others have been approached in a non-partisan way and governments on both sides have been irritated and defensive by comments from church leaders of many Christian and other denominations.

Just out of interest, I googled the writer of 'All things Bright and Beautiful'. She also wrote a number of other memorable hymns.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Frances_Alexander

(straying off-topic, I know, but I thought it worth posting)