Children get in the way of greatness...

And that is great Leiticia- it seems you had a choice, and made the one that suited you- that you really wanted. And that is brilliant and wonderful.

But women (and men) should be able to make other and different choices- if it is what THEY want. And women, still today, too rarely have that choice- even those who do go back to work who soon come to an almost impassable threshold- first as mothers, and then because they are out of the loop and too old. Nobody, but absolutely nobody, is saying here the only way to achiever greatness is via academia or professional/business senior management- and that being a full time sah mother is not 'great' in itself- just that there should be more open choice, and an acceptance (among women too- QED this thread) that it is possible to be a great mother, and also pursue the top of a career, if this is what that woman chooses to do (providing every effort is made to ensure the secure and 'happy' (whatever that means) raising of children. There are of course many mothers who do not work, at whatever level. and do not insure that happens.

And an acceptance too that some mothers will choose to work, not just for financial reasons- but because they perhaps studied hard, and achieved a level of excellence and expertise that they do not want to lose, or waste. Reading between the lines here, perhaps some of you think it is 'wrong'? The needs of children are paramount- and intelligent professionals are fully aware that this has to be a priority- and that systems have to be put in place to secure this- be it via family or professionals.

J K Rowling achieved it because she had a child - otherwise she would have been working with no time.

He would equally have found it difficult to achieve greatness had he had to work in some high profile, high status job.

I read somewhere that Graham Greene found it difficult to spend much time in his children's company even though he loved them.

Do people actively seek greatness, whatever that is? Many seek fame & success, which I see as being quite a different matter.

The concept of greatness is so individually specific to the one who thinks someone holds some kind of greatness, that it is impossible to quantify. Then of course the one who is acclaimed as having greatness may feel quite differently about the matter.

Not something I have wanted! Far rather have time to do the things that won't bring me greatness, but I love. Having my children beats anything 'greatness' would give me.
I do think it would help if we actually knew what we meant by 'greatness'.

I sure we all agree that there is nothing in the concept of 'woman' which makes her physically and intellectually less capable of reaching 'greatness' whatever that may be.

Whether as many woman as men wish for greatness is another question altogether.

I don't agree with stereotypes either- but I don't like the vibes that I pick up from this article that greatness is a very narrow definition of being paid employment and all to do with power, money and status, as if paid employment is the 'be all and end all' and you can't achieve greatness without it. (But I may be doing her a disservice since I don't subscribe and can't read it)
I would have thought that being forced,by economic reasons, to have paid work might well stand in the way of greatness- for men and women - just as much as children.

I agree Leiticia- what I do not agree with is that all men are still supposed to achieve one kind of greatness, and women another- as a norm, as what is expected- and that irrespective of gender, people (that means men too) should have more choice. Releasing women from stereotypical roles releases men too btw.

Jane10- I am glad to hear things are changing in the NHS. From what I saw where I used to live, there were still a great of majority of women GPs, and a singificant % part-time- and very few Consultants- and very few senior managers. So good to know it is different where you are.

Same in teaching.

But when it comes to banking, finances, and other professions, top female managers are still very rare.

There is nothing wrong in stating that there are many other ways to achieve 'greatness' and in a quiet way, etc. Unless it is a hidden and insidious way to say that women who want to achieve in a different field, and in a very different way - are somehow not proper women, or wrong or even bad mothers.

Darcy Bussel?

That's a tough one, it means different things to different people.

Mother Theresa, for example. Emmeline Pankhurst. Florence Nightingale. Marie Curie. My idea of greatness is perhaps more socially inclined, then I think of great painters (not many women there) and scientists (ditto) and tonight I was watching something in which someone said that it was impossible for a professional dancer to have children.

What's the definition of 'greatness'?

I am thinking mainly of household names from the past.

Where I worked lots of the senior staff were women. Its a massive generalisation to say that women just don't get management jobs. Where did I work? NHS! We had an excellent clinical director and lots of female consultants -the majority in fact. All had kids and somehow managed!

Very true. I can't think why greatness immediately assumes fame, money and status-it must be the modern celebrity culture. The truly great have often gone about it quietly, not got rich from it and do not seek status. We could do with more of them!

I am not suggesting that children with shared care always suffer; just that it is wrong to equate greatness with fame and money and status. Some great things happen quietly

janerowena- and i bet the women who condemned your aunt were mostly women too. Our DD1 has risen through the ranks as a young mother. She is totally dedicated to them- and so is her DH. She went to the local comp, got an excellent Degree (from a red brick Uni though)- got on a post Grad training scheme with a big firm and got on famously. She took a year out with both children- and changed jobs after GD2 and was made a partner of her new firm within a year. The only woman out of 30 partners, one of 5 who didn't go to top private (public) schools. Initially, they spent 50% of her salary on employing a really excellent, friendly and down to earth nanny + car. They all make a great team- and the kids miss for nothing and couldn't have a more secure and loving life- and very healthy home-made diet and lots of fun activities.

We need to stop the mindset that children who are looked after by trained professionals suffer and are not as well looked after as by family. Their nanny truly loves them, and has the kind of energy, imagination, skills, etc- that would be difficult for many grand-parents to keep up. This is rubbish, sorry. As long as people (women... as well() think like that, we will continue to have huge inequality in the work place- and even those women who work will continue to be in junior posts and never get to the top of their profession and be senior managers. Senior managers are the ones that will put together solutions that will encourage women to join them at the top.

She will be coming to stay with us here this Summer- and will be just another member of the family, and the GCs will love it.

Greatness to me is raising two children successfully and having had a career whilst juggling everything life hurls at you; I never aspired to 'greatness' so have no idea if would ever have achieved fame, infamy or notoriety thankfully.
Do people set out to achieve greatness of does it slowly creep up on them?

Middle age? Bit concerned it's passed me by and I'm now over 60 and falling into the 'elderly' category rather too often for comfort!

We could all be great spies though (see other thread)

ps what is the definition of 'middle age'?

I agree with Mishap. It all depends on what you mean by 'greatness' - to me it wouldn't compensate for not having children.

It would depend what you mean by greatness. I think that mothers who devote themselves to their children qualify; and parents who manage to work and still bring up happy well-adjusted adults also qualify.

Greatness seems to equate with fame in people's minds - greatness can be quiet and untrumpeted - but greatness nevertheless.

To say nothing of all the women denied jobs because they are women - I had it happen to me. I was told that I had to take an exam, at one interview, with no prior warning. The deputy told me that I had attained the highest score ever. Then his boos returned and said that he had to apologise, but he had been told to employ a man, and was really very sorry. This was way after the Equal Opportunities act. If only I had been able to, I would have taken a tape recorder to the next interview, where almost exactly the same thing happened.

No, I don't have any illusions that I would ever have been 'great', but it does still rankle. I did rather just give up.

Take my aunt. An absolutely brilliant mathematician, Head Girl at Roedean, went to Oxford, but could only get a job in the tax office. She rose up to the giddy heights of area tax inspector, but it was made very clear to her that that was as far as she would ever get. Not only did she have that to contend with, but all her neighbours thought it was dreadful that a woman like her who didn't need the money, went out to work and abandoned her poor children to nannies and childminders.

Is the man who invented the H Bomb - who will go down in history - more "great" than the unknown woman who brought up two of her own and two adopted children to be happy, healthy, kind and productive members of society?

It depends how you define "greatness".

I do, however, think that because many men are unwilling to take on their share of parenting, many women are unable to reach their full potential, whether it be in terms of career or other endeavours.

There are rather a lot of holes in the statement.

The strange part is that at least some of the 'true greats' she mentions, Sarah Bernhardt, Indira Ghandi and Bette Davis, did have children. I don't know about Amelia Earhart and the Pankhursts, though I think one of the latter did.

It's such a muddled article that I even wonder why it got into print. But I don't like the message it conveys.