The man on the top of the Clapham omnibus

I read it like you. My judge disagreed. The full time judge agreed with me as did another judge. It had to be up to the tribunal to decide. We decided ( me and the lay member) to use my interpretation.
This goes to show just one of the problems we are having with PIP

Galen Coming back to your original question, the logic I would apply is this. It's a bit easier if you turn it around.
The opposite of 'cannot use a bath or shower' is 'can use a bath or shower'.
So I would argue that if the applicant can use either a bath or a shower, she shouldn't get the points. She doesn't have to be able to use both of them to not get the points.
IYSWIM
But I agree with GrannyTwice that the issue is really whether or not help is required.

Stop stop! - please! This brings back too many bad memories!! Those b****y forms - how many have I filled in in my lifetime?! They represent a very efficient way of putting people off from applying for their entitlements.

1. Preparing food.
a. Can prepare and cook a simple meal unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 2 points.
c. Cannot cook a simple meal using a conventional cooker but is able to do so using a microwave. points. 2 points
d. Needs prompting to be able to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 2 points.
e. Needs supervision or assistance to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 4 points.
f. Cannot prepare and cook food. 8 points.

2. Taking nutrition.
a. Can take nutrition unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs –
(i) to use an aid or appliance to be able to take nutrition; or
(ii) supervision to be able to take nutrition; or
(iii) assistance to be able to cut up food. 2 points.
c. Needs a therapeutic source to be able to take nutrition. 2 points.
d. Needs prompting to be able to take nutrition. 4 points.
e. Needs assistance to be able to manage a therapeutic source to take nutrition. 6 points.
f. Cannot convey food and drink to their mouth and needs another person to do so. 10 points.

3. Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition.
a. Either –
(i) does not receive medication or therapy or need to monitor a health condition; or
(ii) can manage medication or therapy or monitor a health condition unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs either –
(i) to use an aid or appliance to be able to manage medication; or
(ii) supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication or monitor
a health condition. 1 point.
c. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes no more than 3.5 hours a week. 2 points.
d. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 3.5 but no more than 7 hours a week. 4 points.
e. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 7 but no more than 14 hours a week. 6 points.
f. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 14 hours a week. 8 points.

4. Washing and bathing.
a. Can wash and bathe unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points.
c. Needs supervision or prompting to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points.
d. Needs assistance to be able to wash either their hair or body below the waist. 2 points.
e. Needs assistance to be able to get in or out of a bath or shower. 3 points.
f. Needs assistance to be able to wash their body between the shoulders and waist. 4 points.
g. Cannot wash and bathe at all and needs another person to wash their entire body. 8 points.

5. Managing toilet needs or incontinence.
a. Can manage toilet needs or incontinence unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to manage toilet needs or incontinence. 2 points.
c. Needs supervision or prompting to be able to manage toilet needs. 2 points.
d. Needs assistance to be able to manage toilet needs. 4 points.
e. Needs assistance to be able to manage incontinence of either bladder or bowel. 6 points.
f. Needs assistance to be able to manage incontinence of both bladder and bowel. 8 points.

6. Dressing and undressing.
a. Can dress and undress unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to dress or undress. 2 points.
c. Needs either -
(i) prompting to be able to dress, undress or determine appropriate circumstances for remaining clothed; or
(ii) prompting or assistance to be able to select appropriate clothing. 2 points.
d. Needs assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body. 2 points.
e. Needs assistance to be able to dress or undress their upper body. 4 points.
f. Cannot dress or undress at all. 8 points.

7. Communicating verbally.
a. Can express and understand verbal information unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to speak or hear. 2 points.
c. Needs communication support to be able to express or understand complex verbal information. 4 points.
d. Needs communication support to be able to express or understand basic verbal information. 8 points.
e. Cannot express or understand verbal information at all even with communication support. 12 points.

8. Reading and understanding signs, symbols and words.
a. Can read and understand basic and complex written information either unaided or using spectacles or contact lenses. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance, other than spectacles or contact lenses, to be able to read or understand either basic or complex written information. 2 points.
c. Needs prompting to be able to read or understand complex written information. 2 points.
d. Needs prompting to be able to read or understand basic written information. 4 points.
e. Cannot read or understand signs, symbols or words at all. 8 points.

9. Engaging with other people face to face.
a. Can engage with other people unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points.
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people. 4 points.
d. Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing either –
(i) overwhelming
psychological distress to the claimant; or
(ii) the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points.

10. Making budgeting decisions.
a. Can manage complex budgeting decisions unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make complex budgeting decisions. 2 points.
c. Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make simple budgeting decisions. 4 points.
d. Cannot make any budgeting decisions at all. 6 points.

MOBILITY ACTIVITIES

1. Planning and following journeys.
a. Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 4 points.
c. Cannot plan the route of a journey. 8 points.
d. Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid. 10 points.
e. Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 10 points.
f. Cannot follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, an assistance dog or an orientation aid. 12 points.

2. Moving around.
a. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided. 0 points.
b. Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided. 4 points.
c. Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres. 8 points.
d. Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres. 10 points.
e. Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided. 12 points.
f. Cannot, either aided or unaided, –
(i) stand; or
(ii) move more than 1 metre. 12 points.

Personal Independence Payment (PIP) daily living component points scores

You have to score 8 points in total to get basic rate and 12 for enhanced. There are 10 or 12 categories and you can only score once in each one!

It's definitely got worse since I used to have to help my husband get into the shower over three years ago. There were not quite so many categories then for DLA.
However, I used to feel very sorry for him, as I used to have to pick him up from his wheelchair and manoeuvre him onto the stool under the shower, then switch it on. He had to have a cold shower for at least thirty seconds before the hot water came through. It felt cruel.

4c

What about can bath and shower but does not. Not being facetious -a potential mental health issue. Depression can lead to this situation

4. Washing and bathing.
a. Can wash and bathe unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points.
c. Needs supervision or prompting to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points.
d. Needs assistance to be able to wash either their hair or body below the waist. 2 points.
e. Needs assistance to be able to get in or out of a bath or shower. 3 points.
f. Needs assistance to be able to wash their body between the shoulders and waist. 4 points.
g. Cannot wash and bathe at all and needs another person to wash their entire body. 8 points.

There's a separate descriptor for aided which scores more points.

That's why it's a poor question isn't it? And why doesn't it have the word unaided in it? Surely that's the key?

The arguement I was having was that as she could use a shower unaided it was no points. The judge argued that if she could not use the bath she should be given the points.
The arguement centred about the word or.

Thanks roseq, learning something new today!

That would give 4 points and is a different descriptor

When she says she can use the shower, does she mean she can use the shower unaided? In which case she should not be entitled to the allowance.

What GrannyTwice says:
'Do you need help to bath or shower' would be a better way to word it.

Question is badly worded as said ^^ but I think the intention is clear - someone who needs help to bath or shower.

here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_man_on_the_Clapham_omnibus

he's not real, so it's OK if he gets in the shower with her ..... he's like a virtual Gransnetter

Mmm - I guess the question is attempting to establish whether the claimant can get clean unaided. Looks as though she can, so no points. The questions are so weird - and repetetive!

A dear friend of mine has just lost benefit (which was mobility allowance when she got it) and the disallowance has been backdated to last May - she is required to pay it back. Hmm. The review she had last month has no way of knowing what her condition was last May, so this seems unfair to me. She has active cancer with ongoing treatment including chemo about twice a year - I have been helping her with her benefits over the last few years and have advised her to pay it back in the smallest installments she can negotiate rather than face the stress of appealing - the last thing she needs is stress. I fear it could be vastly to the detriment of her very precarious health to go through all the hassle. But she should not be put in this position.

.......Clapham Omnibus? Woefully ignorant.....

Does anyone check? Could she lie?

In which case she should get the PIP allowance as, although she can get into the shower, she can't wash herself properly once in there, and she could pay the man who is no longer on the top of the Clapham omnibus but is now in the shower with her to wash her back.

Phew!

Is it a double shower? Is there room for the man on the top of the Clapham omnibus in there as well?
(all I was thinking was, if the claimant couldn't reach to wash her back he could do it for her... )

You're right, rosequartz. It's badly worded. In ideal circumstances I expect the claimant would be able to use either (with help, perhaps), but I suppose it's meant to apply to her current circumstances.

It's a separate shower. It can be used unaided.
PIP can be spent on gin if you wish.

Is the PIP payment made to cover the cost of someone coming in to bath/shower her?
If she states that she can use a shower then she should not be awarded the points.

However - is her shower one that is over the bath or is it a walk-in shower? Perhaps she is unable to climb into the bath to have the shower. Would she be entitled to an allowance to change her bath into a walk-in shower.

Too many questions - sorry, not much help really!